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Brexit

Has anybody changed their mind about how they voted?

746 replies

fakenamefornow · 07/09/2017 09:07

It seems not many people have?

OP posts:
twofingerstoEverything · 09/09/2017 18:00

I have demonstrated how it would benefit us you just disagree with me.

You really haven't. You wrote a list, which other people have already addressed, including things we could already do/had control over and things that will still be problematical regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU (eg. relationship with Turkey).

And then you went on about people 'milking the system' when most research indicates that EU migrants are net contributors. Frankly, even if they weren't, their contribution to our health service is worth every penny of child benefit they might send home. If the NHS is to survive, we will almost certainly have to import workers from outside the EU. Will they -- in your book - also be 'milking the system? For example, if they're in NMW jobs as carers and get topped up with tax credits will you consider them to be assisting our country or 'milking' it? Or do you think by leaving the EU we will no longer have immigrants? I can't see them queueing up to come here on restricted visas that are not mutually beneficial.

Bolshybookworm · 09/09/2017 18:09

My MP is Philip Davies, man. There is literally no point in complaint to him regarding Brexit, he's a hard brexiter, trump supporter and generally a boil on the arse of humanity.

CleopatraCatLover · 09/09/2017 18:47

Man yes I'm more than happy to 'coast along' thanks. You don't just set fire to your house to see what will happen Confused

BrandNewHouse · 09/09/2017 20:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

notangelinajolie · 09/09/2017 23:01

Nope. Voted leave.

Soci · 09/09/2017 23:11

I don't blame voters for this mess, I blame conservatives and the media for creating such unnecessary and strong division between leavers and remainers.

Cobblersandhogwash · 09/09/2017 23:18

I blame the suckers who believed the bs.

Even if you think something is shit, it doesn't mean the alternative is any less shit.

Unfortunately, I think the alternative is going to be ultra shit.

Thanks for that. Keep believing in unicorns and your drunk David Davis, Leavers.

And there will always be resistance to this. Just like Leavers bitched about members of the EU for over 40 years.

Peregrina · 09/09/2017 23:18

Would you like to tell us how voters in England, Wales and Scotland vote the DUP out?

twofingerstoEverything · 10/09/2017 07:03

That's a very good question, Peregrina.

ChestnutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire · 10/09/2017 07:13

I was a reluctant remainer and still am. The mess this is in was entirely predictable, it is going exactly the way I thought it would. The EU is a money wasting bureaucracy but untangling ourselves from it is impossible within the timeframes. This government and the previous have behaved appallingly. The only upside is once this is concluded I don't think the Conservative party will ever come to power again. Am hoping this mess will allow more moderate and compassionate parties to evolve.

sashh · 10/09/2017 07:51

I meant rape in marriage legal not illegal - hell of a typo there.

Manclife

Sorry it was the motion to end violence against women and girls, UKIP voted against. It included, "to recognise sexual violence within marriage as a crime and to make rape within marriage a criminal offence" Now it already is in the UK but this was to make it the same in all EU countries.

www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=REPORT&mode=XML&reference=A8-2015-0015&language=EN

Full link quite wordy here's a summary

  1. Recommends, as regards men's violence against women, the Commission and the Member States:
a)	to regard it to be a violation of human rights, reflecting unequal gender power relations and to adopt an all-encompassing policy approach to combat it, including effective methods of prevention and punishment;
b)	to regard men's violence against women as a structural phenomenon and as one of the main impediments to efforts to overcome inequality between women and men;
c)	to formulate a zero-tolerance policy as regards all forms of violence against women;
d)	to adopt a framework for cooperation between governmental and non-governmental organisations (NGOs), with a view to developing policies and practices to combat domestic violence;
e)	to establish harmonised methodology, definitions and criteria, in cooperation with Eurostat, the Fundamental Rights Agency, and the future European Gender Institute in order to gather comparable and compatible data throughout the EU concerning men's violence against women, in particular, comprehensive studies of prevalence;
f)	to appoint national rapporteurs in order to gather, exchange and process information and statistics on men's violence against women, including information on children growing up in violent environments, and to promote the exchange of best practice among Member States, accession and candidate countries;
g)	to highlight in all work relating to men's violence against women how such violence affects the children;
h)	to establish a single system of recording instances of assault by Member States' competent authorities, such as the judiciary, the police, hospitals and social services, in order to ensure that the data is recorded jointly and that greater use is made of them;
i)	to provide appropriate education and training for professionals who are responsible for recording incidents and data relating to domestic violence in order to ensure that they carry out their duties with the required consistency;
j)	to earmark funds for investigation into the costs of men's violence against women in the EU;
k)	to establish the necessary means to monitor the activity and progress of the accession and candidate countries regarding treatment of women in all areas of society, and to make the safety and treatment of women in these countries a criterion for accession;
l)	to develop programmes and surveys targeting women who are members of culturally specific communities or ethnic minority groups, with a view to obtaining an account of the specific forms of violence that these women encounter and planning appropriate methods of dealing with them;
m)	to closely monitor human trafficking across all borders;
  1. Calls on the Member States to establish partnership schemes between the law-enforcement authorities, NGOs, victims" refuges, and other appropriate authorities and to intensify cooperation to ensure the effective implementation of laws aimed at combating men's violence against women, and to raise the awareness of officials at all levels of issues relating to men's violence against women;
  2. Urges the Member States to take appropriate measures concerning men's violence against women in their national laws, in particular:
a)	to recognise sexual violence within marriage as a crime and to make rape within marriage a criminal offence;
b)	not to accept any reference to cultural practices as a mitigating factor in cases of violence against women, crimes of honour or female genital mutilation;
c)	to cooperate and exchange best practice with the authorities in countries with more experience of crimes of honour;
d)	to ensure victims' right to safe access to justice and effective enforcement, including the provision of compensation;
e)	to encourage the prosecution of accomplices to crimes of honour, such as any family members of the perpetrator who encouraged or ordered the crime of honour, in order to demonstrate firmly that such behaviour is unacceptable;
f)	to take account of the fact that children who witness their mothers being battered could be regarded as victims, and thus to consider whether they should be entitled to damages in accordance with national law;
g)	to consider the risks of joint residence orders in favour of perpetrators of violence against women and to establish effective measures that will ensure safe custody of children in cases of separation and divorce;
h)	not to accept any references to intoxication by alcohol as a mitigating factor in cases of men's violence against women;
i)	to combat the idea that working as a prostitute can be equated with doing a job;
  1. Calls on the Member States to take appropriate measures to ensure better protection and support of victims and those who are at risk of becoming victims of violence against women by:
a)	providing qualified protection and legal, medical, social and psychological services and aid, including police protection;
b)	providing proper training, in particular, psychological training, including in respect of children, to the staff of competent bodies dealing with men's violence against women, such as police officers, judicial personnel, health personnel, educators, youth and social workers and prison staff; in the event of the treatment of children in the form of talk therapy, it is particularly important that the child psychologists or therapists concerned are familiar with men's violence against women so that the father's violence against the mother and/or the child is not diminished or trivialised;
c)	adopting a proactive, preventive and penal strategy towards the perpetrators of violence against women in order to reduce recidivism, and providing advisory services for access by the perpetrators either on their own initiative or under a court order; always carrying out adequate risk assessments in order to ensure the safety of women and any children in the process;
d)	recognising the importance of providing support to victims¸ whether women or children, to help them become financially and psychologically independent from the perpetrator;
e)	providing all necessary assistance, including transitional housing, to women and their children in cases of separation or divorce;
f)	treating women who are victims of gender-based violence as a category entitled to priority access to community-housing projects;
g)	providing safe shelters including sufficient financial resources;
h)	providing a minimum income for women who have no other resources, in order to enable them to reintegrate into society in relative safety, in constant cooperation with advisory centres;
i)	conducting specific employment action programmes for the victims of gender-based violence, so as to enable them to enter the labour market and achieve financial independence;
j)	investigating the possibility of setting up 'multi-agencies' where victims can contact the appropriate authorities, such as representatives from the police, the public prosecutor and social and health services;
k)	planning services and centres for the care and support of children of women who are victims of violence;
l)	providing social and psychological support to children who have witnessed domestic violence;
m)	providing free testing for sexually transmitted diseases in rape cases;
n)	ensuring that all perpetrators of violence receive professional help and treatment;
o)	providing proper protection for immigrants, especially single mothers and their children, who often have inadequate means of defence or knowledge of available resources to counter domestic violence in Member States;
  1. Calls on Member States to make use of the Daphne II Programme(12) in order to combat honour crimes in the Member States, to build and maintain more shelters for women who are victims of violence, including honour crimes, and to train experts who specialise in dealing with honour crime victims;
  2. Calls on the EU to address the problem of honour crimes, which has become an EU-wide problem with cross-border implications, and calls on Commission Vice President Frattini to follow up on his promise to organise a European conference on the issue;
  3. Calls on the Member States to act in order to lift the secrecy still surrounding men's violence against women in society, especially domestic violence by adopting measures to raise collective and individual awareness about men's violence against women;
  4. Calls on the Member States to develop public awareness and information programmes on domestic violence and to reduce the social stereotyping of the position of women in society through the education systems and the media;
  5. Calls on the Member States to take appropriate measures to stop female genital mutilation; stresses that preventing and banning female genital mutilation and prosecuting perpetrators must become a priority in all relevant EU policies and programmes; points out that immigrants residing in the Community should be aware that female genital mutilation is a serious assault on women's health and a violation of human rights; calls on the Commission in this context to devise a comprehensive strategic approach at EU level, with the aim of putting an end to the practice of female genital mutilation in the EU;
10. Urges Member States to define acts of female genital mutilation as an illegal act of violence against women, which constitutes a violation of their fundamental rights and a serious aggression against their physical integrity ; consequently regardless of where or in which country this act occurs against EU citizens or residents, such acts will be illegal; 11. Calls on Member States either to implement specific legal provisions on female genital mutilation or to adopt such laws and to prosecute each person who conducts female genital mutilation; 12. Calls for doctors who conduct genital mutilation of young women and girls not only to be prosecuted but also to have their practising licence withdrawn; 13. Calls on the Member States to ensure that parents are held legally liable when acts of female genital mutilation occur on minors; 14. Calls on the Member States to ensure that female genital mutilation is considered a reasonable argument for an asylum claim in order to protect the asylum seeker from inhuman treatment; 15. Asks the Commission to declare a European Year against men's violence against women, as repeatedly requested by Parliament, and to produce a work plan to enable the phenomenon to be highlighted more clearly and provide means of speaking out against the current situation; 16. Calls on the Commission to establish a programme entitled "Fight against violence" as a separate part of its framework programme on Fundamental Rights and Justice for the period 2007-2013; 17. Considers it of utmost importance that reliable statistics exist regarding women's reporting of brutal or inhuman treatment to the law enforcement authorities; 18. Regrets that, as the above-mentioned reporting is usually left unrecorded when no action is taken by law enforcement authorities, the statistics remain untrustworthy and unreliable; 19. Calls, therefore, on the Member States to ensure that all reports by women of brutal or inhuman treatment are recorded, as well as the percentage of cases in which the law enforcement authorities took action and which types of action were used; 20. Recalls that the burden of proof is often placed on women who are already in a disadvantaged situation; 21. Calls on the Commission to establish a mechanism on the basis of which it would be possible to identify those Member States in which the situation of violence against women appears to be comparatively worse; 22. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, the governments and parliaments of the Member States, health-care professional bodies and consumer organisations.
sashh · 10/09/2017 07:52

Actually I think it wasn't a typo - sorry yet to have coffee - will be back after caffine infusion

PebblesFlintstone · 10/09/2017 08:09

I can't believe how often people still go on about us paying more into the EU than we get back.

It is not a money in/money out equation. Successive governments have paid EU membership for all this time because of all the unquantifiable economic benefits it brings through trade arrangements, migration (yes, this has benefited our economy!)etc. Not to mention the political and security benefits of a being part of a large, stable, prosperous bloc. No government would have been paying in if they thought it made us worse off!

All this stuff about negotiating the best possible deal is such a pile of bollocks. We have had the best deal out of any country in the EU for a very long time with our rebate and opt-outs. The best deal is the one we've already got.

The most disgraceful thing is that it appears this horrendously damaging decision has been driven by a group of just 40 hard-right Tory MPs holding the rest of the party hostage. I hope PP who predicts they will never get elected again is right.

Cobblersandhogwash · 10/09/2017 09:22

Which 40 hard right MPS?

SunSeptember · 10/09/2017 09:23

No not at all. Seeing Blair on TV this am, has encouraged me to speak out that I am a leaver and my mind has not changed at all. As Andrew marr said, whose sides are you on. There's a higher political class who isn't interested in Individual countries just the higher EU pie in the sky do it at whatever cost. Blair is the epitomy of this. Seeing him strengthens my resolve further.

YokoReturns · 10/09/2017 09:44

sun but what do you actually object to? 'The EU pie in the sky' is not a reason for voting Leave, it's not even a thing.

YokoReturns · 10/09/2017 09:46

Idea for thread: ridiculous justifications for voting Leave (the Leavers can do a parallel one for Remainers, although it might be less ridiculous).

histinyhandsarefrozen · 10/09/2017 09:48

When I read some of the utter crap Brexiteers come out with, I despair.

allegretto · 10/09/2017 10:03

'The EU pie in the sky' is not a reason for voting Leave, it's not even a thing.

Exactly! What does that even mean, sun?

Sinuhe · 10/09/2017 10:30

It's the arrogance about Brexit, that gets me every time!
Nope the EU does not care! Hence the slogan Brexit means Brexit.
Yep the EU will squeeze every last penny out of Britain before the final push. Leaving Britain ... nearly Bankrupt?

Peregrina · 10/09/2017 10:54

Which 40 hard right MPS?

The names on this list:

www.michaeltomlinson.org.uk/sites/www.michaeltomlinson.org.uk/files/2016-11/Letter%20to%20Donald%20Tusk_1.pdf - which includes the usual suspects Lilley, Redwood, IDS, Gove. Carswell has now been given the boot. Interestingly enough, Johnson is not on the list. Can't have him nailing his colours to the mast - he still wants to be PM and if the public mood is seen to change, he will change also.

They were quite prepared to be open about their names, when berating the EU but when Channel 4 asked their spokeswoman, Suella Fernandes, for their names, and where they could be found, she came over all coy and wouldn't say. This is a taxpayer funded group, so it's not unreasonable that we should want to know what we are paying for.

Manclife · 10/09/2017 10:57

If the remainers want to know why they lost they should look inward. Had the 'they're all racist' or 'it's just about £350m on the side of a bus' and the genuine concerns dealt with perhaps it would gone the other way.

The EU does affect the laws in the UK yet that gets dismissed.

Immigration is an issue for those in low income jobs yet people talk about 'net benefit'

These are real issues that are brushed aside (and still are). For me it's more like an unhappy relationship that's come to an end. Sure it may not be much better breaking up but it can't be any worse.

Bearbehind · 10/09/2017 11:03

Sure it may not be much better breaking up but it can't be any worse.

Don't you believe it Hmm

Manclife · 10/09/2017 11:06

Well we're about to find out.

Peregrina · 10/09/2017 11:09

Yes, people do care about the £350 million a week for the NHS. This failure to tackle the developing crisis in the NHS is almost certainly one reason why Theresa May lost her majority. Blame Theresa May and Jeremy Hunt now for their failure to do anything about it, but don't blame Remainers for Johnson's lie on the side of the bus.

Yes, the EU does affect UK laws and as a member state we have promoted quite a few of those. Many others we have been happy with or have not felt strongly enough to vote against. Name one which we voted against and have had imposed against our will. You might consider fishing rights. Consider Farage's attendance on the EU subcommittee dealing with this, where he attended one out of 42 meetings, and ask whether it was really the EU's fault or the UK's representative's fault.

In the areas which have the highest immigration the vote tended to be for Remain. There is an issue with low income jobs, but it's as much due to the culture of Westminster's policy, especially under the Tories, of promoting 'flexible' labour policies. Yes, it needs tackling, but what makes you think the current Government will?