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Brexit

Has anybody changed their mind about how they voted?

746 replies

fakenamefornow · 07/09/2017 09:07

It seems not many people have?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 12:59

What did you vote based on Be? What benefits do you think we'll achieve outside the EU that were unattainable whilst in it?

QuentinSummers · 13/09/2017 13:27

Yes matoo. It's like the "we are full" thing. Schools and doctors are full because of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure. Roads are gridlocked because we don't want to invest in infrastructure. If the population suddenly reduced by 20%, do you think government would keep public services as they are now? Of course Not. They'd be cut and we would be right back at "we are full".
Talk of immigrant numbers is a huge distraction from chronic underinvestment

fakenamefornow · 13/09/2017 13:29

I voted leave, and know maybe 50 people who did likewise, compared with two or three hundred who voted remain.

You know how up to 350 people voted in the referemdum? Shock

OP posts:
BeBeatrix · 13/09/2017 13:48

Bear: not based on benefits exactly. I'd probably have wanted to remain in the EU if it were in its pre-Maastricht form, and would almost certainly have voted to join in the 70s (had I been around to vote).

Even as recently as a few months before the vote, I was certain I'd vote remain, but considered it such a significant choice for the country, that I spent one or two hundred hours (yes, really!), looking into it in detail. And I don't mean reading campaign literature, I mean reading academic research and treaties, and the like.

I'm starting work in a few minutes, so don't have long, but very briefly:

Supra-nationalism: it doesn't tend to end well, and it's especially concerning when it's been gradually and almost imperceptibly imposed on a group of nations whose people (on the whole) are in favour of cooperation but still of principally being governed as separate countries. When socially and culturally we function as separate nations, it makes it harder to organize proper political opposition or campaigns across the nations, meaning that power is further distanced from voters. Furthermore, it functions in a way which promotes back-room deals where each country agrees to certain legislation on condition that they get certain other beneficial legislation through, rather than legislation doing what is best for all.

How the EU works: Yes, it's a basically a democracy, in that we vote in MEPs. But it functions in a way where a very small number of people have a huge amount of power. MEPs get to vote for or against decisions, but that's pretty much it. They function as a second house - approving or disapproving legislation rather than truly shaping it. Enormous power in the hands of few people, who are not easily voted out, is dangerous.

The effect of the EU on the poor: CAP is shameful and enormously exacerbates poverty in Africa. In addition, the EU consistently pro big business at the expense of SMEs.

I'd have rather we stayed in, and the EU reformed, but the EU has so far shown no real capacity to reform. I'd have also rather stay in for a few more years to see if it might change direction, but it was clear that this was a once in a generation vote.

I knew that I was likely to be financially worse off (and inconvenienced) because of leaving, but put a great deal of effort into determining what I considered to be the right way to vote - the wisest move for the country long-term, even if that was at some economic expense or entailed some suffering for a decade, for the sake of future generations.

I know many disagree with me, and I respect their decisions. But I get irritated by suggestions that because I voted leave I must be badly educated (I have PG qualifications from a top university), ill-informed (by the time of the vote I knew more about the EU and its workings than almost anyone else I knew, a couple of lawyers and and MEP aside), racist (I do voluntary work with immigrants, for a start!), or voting based on feelings (I did more research into this than, I think, anyone else I know).

None of these things proves I voted the best way of course, and I realize there were also good arguments for staying. I also realize, Bear, that you made none of those accusations, by the way!

BeBeatrix · 13/09/2017 14:01

You know how up to 350 people voted in the referemdum?

I'm in touch with a lot of people! Obviously most of these aren't people I know well, but people often made their views pretty clear in brief conversations before, and even more after, the referendum. And I have slightly ridiculously wide circle of contacts (but thankfully a handful of genuinely good friends amongst them).

Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 14:01

Thanks for that Be. That has to be one of the best responses I've ever read from a Leaver on here.

Clearly we disagree on the actual vote but much of what you said makes a lot of sense.

I guess the big difference is I have no confidence in our ability to do any better on our own! Grin

fakenamefornow · 13/09/2017 14:45

BeBeatrix

I did a similar amount of reading, far more than anybody else I know. The main thing I learnt was just how much knowledge you need to make a properly informed decision on this and that I was still miles short of it. It really pisses me off when people I know who've read nothing more that the headlines of the Daily Mail think they're a fucking expert.

One issue that stood out for me was NI/ROI, I don't think this got anything like the coverage it deserved. Leaving the EU and the consequences of that DOES risk the peace in NI. Now it might all work out ok (fingers crossed) but it's a massive dice to roll.

OP posts:
BeBeatrix · 13/09/2017 15:54

One issue that stood out for me was NI/ROI, I don't think this got anything like the coverage it deserved.

Totally agree. I considered the NI/ROI situation to be one of the strongest arguments in favour of remaining, and certainly the one that received the least attention in comparison with its importance (even though, on balance, I was in favour of leaving).

fakenamefornow · 13/09/2017 16:22

I remember Nigel Farage on panels shouting anybody down who even mentioned it. He was very effective at immediately closing down any discussion of it. Hate that man.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 13/09/2017 16:51

My vote for Remain was partly in consideration of the NI/RoI situation. The Peace process was hard won, and it's almost criminal the way it could so casually be destroyed.

Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 16:58

I think that's the difference between Leavers and Remainer who did research the implication of leaving; they were then divided by their faith in the UK being able to adequately deal with the consequences.

Unfortunately nothing that has happened before or since the referendum has given me any reason to revise my opinion that we simply cannot and will not deal with this in a way that will make it worthwhile.

The damage is going to far outweigh any benefits.

TheElementsSong · 13/09/2017 17:21

BeBeatrix Thank you for a genuinely thoughtful and interesting explanation of your reasoning which led to your vote. Although I am (and will probably always be a Remoaner) I really really hope that you are right, and I am wrong, about everything. Especially the NI situation.

Corcory · 13/09/2017 17:32

I am nether racist nor a Xenophobe. My reasons for against FOM illustrate this. I find the EU FOM system a very racist one in it's self as it gives mainly white, Christian people freedoms and opportunities that citizens from other parts of the world do not have.
I would like to see a system where everyone, from any part of the world can come here providing that they meet the criteria we would set for entry to our country. I feel very strongly that we should not be discriminate against anyone no matter what part of the world they come from. I also agree with BeBeatrix that the common agricultural policy is also very unfair to poorer parts of the world especially Africa.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 13/09/2017 17:34

Your reasons don't add up to me, be, but at least you have some. Grin
It's interesting that the whole world are racing to get into trade groups- inc most of Africa- but we won't be. I wonder how people think that will benefit Africa or us?
You voted for something that will financially penalise and inconvenience all of us..?.I find many leavers saying this - as if it's trivial - clearly it is to many. Also, if you read the threads about brexit from last year, it is very very clear that many leave voters did not expect there to be this 'twenty years of hardship/upheaval'- in fact it barely figures.

Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 17:37

corcory, you've complained several times that there 2 conversations on this thread yet you've gone off on the FOM tangent again- none has been talking about racists / Nazis for ages.

After your attack on me earlier where you said I often quote things as fact but don't back them up, could you possibly answer my previous request to tell me why it is not a 'fact' that leaving the EU is not as simple as just walking away?

histinyhandsarefrozen · 13/09/2017 17:44

I found it funny that pp said 'what's the remain plan?' As though leavers having no plan to deal with Ireland border, Gibraltar, eu citizens, farming, care, financial services etc etc, was in fact no big deal at all, because they thought remainers were just as plan-free.

Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 17:46

That is a funny one his Grin, its all part of the avoidance tactics though; turn the question around to avoid answering it!

Corcory · 13/09/2017 18:13

Bear - Sometimes people have to go out and work! I was replying to Fake, Peregrina and Matoo after my posts this morning. Calling people Naïve or deluded is your opinion not a fact Bear.

Peregrina · 13/09/2017 18:21

I would like to see a system where everyone, from any part of the world can come here providing that they meet the criteria we would set for entry to our country.

Do you honestly expect Theresa May deliver on this Corcory? One of the reasons the Indian trade deal hasn't begun to get off the ground is their desire for visas.

BakedBeans47 · 13/09/2017 18:26

I voted remain and would not change my vote

Bearbehind · 13/09/2017 18:40

Calling people Naïve or deluded is your opinion not a fact Bear.

I wasn't calling people 'naive' or 'deluded' willy nilly corcory, it was within a very specific context.

I said anyone who thinks leaving the EU is as simple as just walking away is naive or deluded.

It is an indisputable fact that it is not that easy so I'm really not sure how you could argue that anyone who thinks it isn't is not one of those 2 things.

I'm genuinely interested to hear why you would think that is not the case.

llangennith · 13/09/2017 18:56

Nope.

woman11017 · 14/09/2017 06:31

Hope everyone enjoyed the last election, because May has just announced there won't be any more votes in parliament. FTPA makes calling another GE tricky.

That's called fascism.

Peregrina · 14/09/2017 07:16

Actually, FTPA didn't make calling the last election tricky at all. May might when she looks back on her political career rue the day she called it. I don't think she is at the moment; she's behaving as though she got her 100 majority.

woman11017 · 14/09/2017 07:58

But the enabling bill can cancel FTPA peregrina Sad

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