Westminstenders: The wrong homework

[HashiAsLarry]

I'm no rtb but I'll give it a shot, though her efforts deserve much more than me.

The August negotiation round has, well, fizzled out in much the same way as any other. It's taken over a year to get to written position papers and there's still no clue as to a direction from the UK government.

Japan, meanwhile, is about to sign off on a deal with the EU. A deal we want to copy.

@faisalislam
^but if post brexit britain's trade deal with third biggest economy in world is to be based on Brussels' deal, what about rest? TTIP? Canada?
...when PM signs off statements like this on primacy of EU-third party deals, one wonders how temporary the temporary customs union will be^

The NHS is now launching a drive to recruit foreign GPs, like the ones that have left thanks to Brexit. It's a good job they'll be £350m a week better off now. Oh hang on...

My point exactly...

Yep
No moral highground to be taken here....

Yet a few days ago the Government announced a scheme to recruit overseas Health Care Professionals. You couldn't make it up, could you?
Who on earth will want to come if it's made clear that they are only here under sufferance?

Do you think this leak is deliberate? I.e. the Government flying a kite, to see whether there is an outcry, in which case, it will get watered down?

Simon Cox‏*@SimonFRCox*
May wants huge extension of her broken, nasty & ultimately counter-productive migration enforcement regime to citizens of UK's neighbours 1/
May wants EU cits & families under her stupidly complex, incomprehensible rules evolved over years to hide rights & procedures from ppl 2/
When UK joined EU, immigration rules for spouses in UK were these 4 paragraphs.
Now they're this tangled mess >
www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-part-8-family-members 3/
When UK joined EEC (but lets call it EU for ease) every child born in UK was born British, unless father was diplomat or enemy soldier 4/
Since 1983, under Thatcher's British Nationality Act, UK-born children of EU cits arent British - unless one has permanent residence 5/
So now, enforcing officials really do check to catch young adults born and lived here their whole lives, who find out they're not British 6/
Migrants in UK have to pay tens of thousands of £ to Govt and courts and lawyers, just because the rules are so complex & badly applied. 7/
Parliament must now insist on clear, simple immigration rules so everyone can understand them & see they are fair and justified 8/
Ministers must instruct Home Office staff to be pragmatic - end detention & long procedures for people who cant be deported 9/
Until now, few EU citizens have been caught in this web of deliberate confusing, threatening bureacracy. May wants this to change. 10/
May wants EU citizens fearing the Home Office. The mistake on the form. The missed deadline. The warning letter. The knock on the door 11/
May wants migrants in fear: she knows no other way to do migration policy; & she wants to please her ethno-nationalist base of haters 12/
It doesnt have to be this way. From centre-right to far-left, people dont want friends, family, neighbours to be treated this way. 13/
UK public has never debated its immigration rules. Parliament rarely stops to read them. This is our chance to change that. 14/
With May's tiny majority, an alliance for fair immigration rules, backed by EU & non-EU migrants, could see a radically different scheme 15/
Every child born in UK to be a citizen from birth. The right of every legal resident to be joined by spouse, children & elderly parents. 16/
All immigration rules to be in clear, simple English. Fees to be limited to cost recovery. Customer-service to be Home Office priority. 17/
An end to the hostile environment that frightens vulnerable people so they wont report crime or seek medical help. 18/
Migration policy to be taken out of Home Office: bc when & where Brits & residents move is main challenge for planning & services.19/

Whole thread here:
twitter.com/SimonFRCox/status/905124059188523008

I think it is still being added to, but I need to go out. Seems like there are good points in here. Of course, who does that listening to reason thing anymore?

You won't get any negative comments on here from Leavers about that document.

I genuinely cannot think of 1 single leaver on this board for whom their vote didnt ultimately boil down to this.

Do you think this leak is deliberate? I.e. the Government flying a kite, to see whether there is an outcry, in which case, it will get watered down?

Possibly to the contrary.

Its saying : Look this is the immigration policy we want, but the nasty EU won't let us have it. This is why we should go for 'no deal' cos y'know immigration.

I'd like to say its a statement of intent ahead of Tory Conference which will quickly go out the window. But I'm not so sure. Its too much red meat being thrown and is too Britain First to be that.

And of course there was always the option of doing what Simon Cox suggests above....

Simon Cox‏*@SimonFRCox*

May doesnt want debate. But Britain needs one: fair policies for family, friends and neighbours from abroad and with have ties there. 20/20

Where are all those ones who said time and again, no we are not racist?

As with previous discussions of specific immigration outrages - or indeed farcical recruitment of migrants like the above mentioned - I expect a period of radio silence from Leavers, until the conversation has moved on to more general discussions.

As I have understood it over many months of explanation, the story was that some PP voted to Leave because it is the EU that have a racist migration policy in FoM, because apparently all EU citizens are white ; they just wanted the UK to have an equal-opportunity immigration policy in which we treat all migrants the same (maybe with some singing of Kumbaya): take that you PC leftie libtard Remainers, hah!

What they've been careful not to mention is that the equal-opportunity immigration policy they are keen on is to ensure that EU citizens should be treated just as appallingly as we have been treating citizens of other countries.

I hate to single Corcory out, but as a Leaver she was one, not without reason, who felt that current EU FoM policies effectively favoured white Christians, and wanted to see fairer rules for non-EU citizens. So what is her opinion of this?

This smacks me more of the Tories refusing to listen to the electorate again and pushing on with their own beliefs, rather than that being what Brexit is all about.

However those leavers who voted Tory for the Brexit ticket are getting precisely what they asked for. Like everything else, they were warned. And they'll get more angry at those who made the warning rather than those who the anger should lie with.

Well I have now caught up and read the article! No I do not agree with lowering the numbers of people coming to this country.
I, as I have said before would like to see every one on a level playing field.

Having read the article in full I can see that it does not say that EU citizens won't be able to bring relations in with them. It says that at the moment there are no restrictions on the distance of the relationship to prove being a relative. What they are suggesting is that it should be restricted to immediate family. I would think that should include partner, children and parents.

It also does not say that you would need a visa. It says that you need a passport. I certainly didn't know that, at the moment, you could get into Britain on just an EU ID card alone!
Remember this is a draft proposal from the HO. It is going to be watered down have no doubt.

corcory is right. It does say you can bring close relatives. I believe the term "durable partner" is used, which made me wonder if you have to give your DH a good coat of epoxy resin before he'll be allowed across the border.

My biggest concerns on a quick read are what counts as skilled and unskilled? Is a care worker skilled or unskilled and of unskilled how will this impact on terms of visa for potential care workers? Also, how will the time restrictions impact on recruitment for either skilled or unskilled? Will a nurse want to come over if they know they may have to uproot their family in 2-5 years?

Well, I certainly knew that people only needed an ID card. It would be the same for us going to other EU countries, except that we don't have them. I think I had a discussion with Corcory this time last year about immigration, which is why I mentioned her name, and as I suspected these proposals are levelling down to the rules which govern non-EU citizens, rather than the levelling up, which I think might have been wished for.

Personally, I think we do have obligations to Commonwealth citizens, and not just white Commonwealth citizens, whose grandparents were born here. In fact I felt rather irritated to find that someone I knew who had a grandparent who was British, claimed citizenship, has never lived here and as far as I am aware has no intention of doing so. Meanwhile, people who are married to EU citizens here, and live and work and pay their taxes are left in limbo, not knowing what the rules will be.

Love the vision of my Dh coated in epoxy resin Bigly!!!
I really wish all the jumping to conclusions on these threads would stop and people would read links properly.

It would be great to have some proper debates and some sensible suggestions put forward.

I do think the carers situation is a difficult one. It's not as if you can use the seasonal workers initiative for them can you! Anyone with any constructive ideas on this one? The only thing I would say is that there should be possibilities of recruiting from all over the world rather than limiting it to the EU.

Milo Ren @milo1234
The same Bot accounts that switched from Brexit to Trump and back are now pushing Jacob Rees Mogg.

[not sure how to verify this]

I've never heard of the situation you describe Peregrina, have no idea if it's common. I'm not so sure I agree with you about prioritizing commonwealth citizens. Think we have done that in the past and 'paid our dues' as far as that's concerned. I do think though that if you use the analogy of needing to compensate others for the sins of our fathers I think we could pretty much make a case for the whole of the rest of the world. We were really great at taking advantage of everywhere we ventured and I really feel we do owe everyone!

I do think the carers situation is a difficult one. It's not as if you can use the seasonal workers initiative for them can you! Anyone with any constructive ideas on this one? The only thing I would say is that there should be possibilities of recruiting from all over the world rather than limiting it to the EU.
Um, well being an EU citizen isn't a requisite to being a carer in the UK. They do come from all over the world. So not really sure what you're asking here.

I'm not entirely sure the best way to recruit them however is to make it harder to come here. From wherever they originated.

I for one, have in fact read the links quite carefully. We might have hoped for an easing of restrictions for non-EU citizens, but that with the present Government, and May in particular, that would be too much to ask.

What exactly count as sensible suggestions? Taking students out of the immigration stats would be a useful start, because relatively few overstay their visas, although granted some seek an extension to their visa before they eventually go home. However, that one doesn't seem to be on May's agenda.

Care workers - make it easier for non EU citizens to come and take up that sort of work? I don't think that's made it to the agenda either, nor is it likely to, because care work is notoriously badly paid, so the workers are not likely to make a huge tax contribution to the country.

JRM - are they all mad!! He is the last person to be touted as a leader. He will hardly be a man of the people!!

On another note. I do actually know people who speak like him who live in Scotland and have no reason to make it up! So I'm not so sure it's a completely made up accent.

It says that at the moment there are no restrictions on the distance of the relationship to prove being a relative.

You do know that's not true, though? I know that's what it says, but it isn't the case.

The only thing I would say is that there should be possibilities of recruiting from all over the world rather than limiting it to the EU.

There's nothing to prevent that happening while the UK remains in the EU. The Home Office has just chosen to pursue a policy whereby lower paid occupations are mostly not eligible for Tier 2 visas (with a few exceptions like ballet dancers who can be paid a lot less than most skilled roles require). Unfortunately there's nothing really in this document to suggest they're going to do anything to make it easier.

Tucking, Interesting that what was stated in the article wasn't actually true! That's the problem with relying on reporters giving their own views on things they have read and not actually being able to read the original .
Lots of people get really hot under the collar and start spouting all sorts then things get all distorted. That's one of the things I don't like about these types of threads.

Tucking - we're not staying in the EU though so not really much point in looking backwards. We have to look forward and think of solutions. As I have said I have no idea what we will do about unskilled workers. Could we have exempt occupations?

I didn't say we should prioritise Commonwealth citizens, but I do think we still owe them something. We are quite happy to offer British citizenship to those with British grandparents, even to people who seem to have little connection to the country. I know it was 30 odd years ago now, but remember the way that Zola Budd was fast tracked to British Citizenship on the strength of a grandparent? I didn't blame her, as a 17 year old I think she was badly advised. But all this talk of re-fostering links with the Commonwealth, is to my mind, barely concealed racism, because they mean the White Commonwealth like Australia, New Zealand etc. You can bet your life they don't mean Zimbabwe, or Nigeria.

BTW I have had Italian and German friends both come to this country travelling only with an ID card. This isn't new, it's been the case that I know, at least since 1985, so predates the EU/Maastricht.

Peregrina - I agree with you about the commonwealth. But I think we need to simplify the whole thing and stop this idea that people with grandparents who came from here get priority. I just don't know how many people that involves and whether or not it's a big thing.

proposals are levelling down to the rules which govern non-EU citizens

I believe this is the ultimate aim (and the rules for non-EU citizens have, AFAIK, become more punitive in recent years). Hence me not jumping for joy at the article.

My feeling too TheElements - why not level up? All this cant from Theresa May about 'A country which is open for business'. You could have fooled me. A nasty bigotted racial country.