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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/08/2017 20:43

Misti North is one of the v small minority to whom sovereignty is the overriding motivation, not just a code word to oppose immigration,

lalalonglegs · 14/08/2017 20:44

BigChoc Did you see the Matthew Parris piece in the Times on Saturday in which he claimed that a friend of his, a Conservative party activist, had received a FB message from someone arranging a leadership bid for JRM? JRM is, of course, denying it all and blaming the silly season but it's getting beyond a joke. Behind the Harry Potter specs lurks that familiar combination of humble-brag arrogance, ruthless ambition and cold-blooded Conservatism a stint on the playing fields of Eton produces so easily.

Mistigri · 14/08/2017 20:46

There is almost certainly no time for an official "third party" to be formed and get elected before 31 March 2019.

It doesnt need to get elected; it just needs to attract enough despairing business-minded Tory voters to make the Tories worried. A couple of defections by remain Tory MPs would put the frighteners on too.

Of course this is only one possible scenario.

FWIW I dont think this "Democrats" thing will fly. No policy for starters (unless you count as policy stuff made up on the hoof by an ex DM journalist). But brexit pretty much gurantees that something will happen between now and March 2019.

SwedishEdith · 14/08/2017 20:47

Pete North is clearly a chip off the old block. And also tetchy and snarky to anyone he deems to be stupid. Both extreme geeks who struggle to see that anyone could think differently. PN's aim is that he believes democracy should be local. That's it. It's purely ideological. So, I guess his dad is the same as I assume/get the impression they just bounce ideas off each other with little interaction with others.

Mistigri · 14/08/2017 20:54

Remember these are the authoritarian-leaning voters, not the most flexible thinkers.

Some are. Many aren't. Leave scraped a bare majority, and - at the margins - opinions are changing. Plus, given the age profile of brexit voters, some of that majority is being lost through natural processes.

In any case, just because a complex, difficult, technical policy has majority support isn't sufficient to make it happen. Implementing brexit will require large amounts of competence, time and money, all of which appear to be in short supply.

Peregrina · 14/08/2017 21:00

In any case, just because a complex, difficult, technical policy has majority support isn't sufficient to make it happen. Implementing brexit will require large amounts of competence, time and money, all of which appear to be in short supply.

But that same short supply could easily lead to the economy and society being wrecked.

Lolabridges · 14/08/2017 21:35

Possibly has been said before, but the timescale for all this is ridiculously short and I doubt very much it will all fit in.

Well in fact I don't think it will fit in to the timetable at all, and there is the "out"

Oh dear that nasty EU did not give us enough time to sort this all out. Not our fault it is theirs. Or something along those lines.

No fault Brexit Britain. I can see it.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/08/2017 22:14

A disorderly Brexit takes no planning, time or talent
Henc the likely outcome if Brexit is really left to the 3 Dunces

There's no time for a low pain Brexit by 31 March 2017 (painfree doesn't exist)
and no time either for a genuinely tailored transition - only for a continuation of current terms, maybe with a tiny fudge or 2, if Barnier helps hide the govt's blushes

BigChocFrenzy · 14/08/2017 22:15

31 March 2019 !

BigChocFrenzy · 14/08/2017 22:16

wrt abilities of the 3 Dunces:

Remember Rowan Atkinson in his “father of the bride” sketch:

I wouldn’t trust any of them to sit the right way on a lavatory !" Grin

PattyPenguin · 14/08/2017 22:23

Well, this is a doozie.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40922177

"The UK has set out the "ambitious new customs arrangement" it wants to secure with the EU after Brexit.
Ministers said the plans would mean the "freest and most frictionless possible trade" with the rest of Europe.
This could include a "temporary customs union" after Brexit to prevent border problems as the UK leaves the EU.
Businesses have been calling for clarity since the UK said it was leaving the EU's customs union as part of Brexit.

Countries in the customs union don't impose tariffs (taxes on imports) on each other's goods.
Members also agree to impose the same external tariffs on goods from other countries.
So, for example, a 10% tariff is imposed on some cars imported from outside the customs union, while 7.5% is imposed on roasted coffee.
Other goods - such as soap or slate - have no tariffs.
The UK's departure from the EU's customs union was confirmed at the weekend in a joint article by Chancellor Philip Hammond and Trade Secretary Liam Fox.
According to the newly-published government paper, the UK could ask Brussels to establish a "temporary customs union" after it leaves the EU in March 2019.
But during this period, it would also expect to be able to negotiate its own international trade deals - something it cannot do as an EU customs union member.
Once this period expires, the UK will look to agree either a "highly streamlined" border with the EU, or a new "partnership" with no customs border at all."

We're really in having cake and eating it territory here.

Instead of going to bed as I should, I'm off to try to find this hilarious paper.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/08/2017 22:40

The non-tariff issues, such as waiting 12-36 hours to get through borders (e.g. Turkey 's waiting times) can be as damaging as tariffs.
especially for components that criss-cross borders a few times before reaching the final assembly line

Motheroffourdragons · 14/08/2017 22:46

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/08/2017 22:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

whatwouldrondo · 15/08/2017 00:59

I read the front page article in the Times on the racks in the station newsagents. I particularly liked the description of yet more flimsy cake and eat it thinking in the latest "papers" from DExEU as showing that they had failed to do the necessary detailed policy work to produce sound proposals and were now in essay crisis mode. As a skilled procrastinator I am sure I could produce something better against a deadline, but then ever present is the fear of judgement of an intelligent and critical marker / audience Hmm. Were it David Davis I would know that any unicorn shit would do.....

Woman highlighted this study on the last thread. Here is the debunking. I was only partially correct in assuming a positive to negative scale, it was a measure of negativity but in fact it was far more complicated than that and the complex methodology was butchered in the presentation www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-report-latest-remainers-deport-eu-citizens-uk-back-hard-european-union-study-explained-a7892216.html

MangoSplit · 15/08/2017 02:29

Place marking

Mistigri · 15/08/2017 05:15

The good thing about all this lunacy is that business will get fed up of waiting, and will instead direct investment elsewhere. And some tories will sit up and take notice. The headlines may be dominated by a handful of clueless ministers, but there are over 300 Tory MPs many of whom won't support businesses in their constituency going under or disinvesting. And there are plenty of sensible Labour, SNP and LD MPs too.

Who on earth produces these papers? I am amazed that any senior civil servant wants to be involved. I'm not sure if the EU negotiating team should be tearing their hair out, or simply laughing at us. What an utter disaster this government is.

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 06:21

George Medal hero Bernard Kenny who tried to save murdered MP Jo Cox, dies aged 79

He was a very private, unassuming, family man. Stubborn, kind and fair. An excellent bloke

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/george-medal-hero-tried-to-save-murdered-mp-jo-cox-dies-aged-79-batley-miner-bernard-kenny-a7893516.html

In all the outcry about Trump refusing to condemn quasi/ nazi fascist terrorism, can anyone remember a single tory, at the time of the assassination, condemning the right wing quasi nazi/fascist terrorism which killed Jo Cox?

Or since?

What an utter disaster this government is.

And as LH said earlier; in whose interest is this disaster and is it even really a disaster for the machiavels? Govey is the idiot friend of the america first machine after all.

On the other hand, entitled privately educated white men are never the sharpest tools in the shed.

Digital Economy Bill is going to be useful for tracking mums net activists:

thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-claims-doj-requesting-info-on-visitors-to-anti-trump-website

Justice demands 1.3M IP addresses related to Trump resistance site

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 06:42

Richard North analyses possible transition options - and details their incredible complexity.

He slaughters the (leaked) ludicrous proposals the govt is expected to publish this week:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86571

It appears the Government is about to commit openly to a series of proposals
so devastatingly unrealistic that they don't have any chance of making it alive into the real world

Already, we see from diverse rumours of the paper on the Irish border question which is going to have the
Irish government vehemently opposed to the UK's plans and ready to veto everything in sight
....
Without yet seeing any of the detail, though, one gets the impression that we are, as a nation, on the brink. Sad

With nearly fourteen months since the referendum,
the government is demonstrating that it has learned perilously little and is as far now from a coherent exit plan as it ever was.

But what is even more disturbing is the apparent inability of government ministers to learn anything, or to understand the hurdles they are up against.
.....
From the brink, where we are now,
we are about to see the UK tilt over the edge of that cliff, and plummet to economic chaos.

And yet, these people still think they know what they are doing Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 06:46

It's alarming me that a longterm leaver like North,
who seems to have more detailed knowledge of the mechanics of leading the EU than anyone else,
is almost daily giving apocalyptic warnings about Britain's future

I hope it is just that he has worsening indigestion or the like,
but I fear he is screaming in terror at seeing the country being driven over a cliff by the idiots in the driving seat.

PattyPenguin · 15/08/2017 07:05

The "temporary customs union" thing really is daft. Can't you just see the negotiations?

UK: We want a customs union.
EU: You're in one now. You're leaving it in March 2019. You reiterated that the other day.
UK: Only because we don't like the stuff that comes with it. We want just a customs union, only temporarily.
EU: We already said, no cherry picking.
UK: 'S not fair. Turkey has a customs union, and it's not in the EU.
EU: It has a customs union on some things. And it wanted to join the EU. We were a bit meh about that, so we gave it a bit of a customs union as a sop. You were in the EU and decided to leave. Totally different situation.
UK: But we want a customs union so we don't crash our economy.
EU: Tough. Sod off.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 07:08

"transition means transition"

A red, white & blue transition ....

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 07:27

Worrying trend' of freedom of the press in the UK as country ranks 40 in latest Reporters Without Borders index

We have reached the age of post-truth, propaganda, suppression of freedoms - especially in democracies

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-press-freedom-index-2017-reporters-without-borders-uk-freedom-information-a7893211.html

It's alarming me that a longterm leaver like North, who seems to have more detailed knowledge of the mechanics of leading the EU than anyone else, is almost daily giving apocalyptic warnings about Britain's future

Has anyone seen his views referenced in any newspapers/TV?

TheElementsSong · 15/08/2017 07:51

"The UK has set out the "ambitious new customs arrangement" it wants to secure with the EU after Brexit.
Ministers said the plans would mean the "freest and most frictionless possible trade" with the rest of Europe.
This could include a "temporary customs union" after Brexit to prevent border problems as the UK leaves the EU.

Would be hilarious if it wasn't real life. This kind of vague, hand-wavey, string-of-adjectives, undergraduate-level sloganeering essay is aimed at a domestic audience. It's Cake-And-Eat-It, but with longer words.

But I'm certain it will meet with approval by Leavers. Who will then blame lack of acquiescence from the EU as "technocratic bullying" and so forth.

BiglyBadgers · 15/08/2017 07:55

Digital Economy Bill is going to be useful for tracking mums net activists:

Time to invest in a decent VPN guys