Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

[RedToothBrush]

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

Patty Hammond is not stupid - he is a sensible man promoting a stupid policy because he knows it's a dead end. He doesn't believe in it any more than Keir Starmer ever believed in a "jobs first brexit". They are both intelligent politicians who live in the real world, playing make-believe for political ends, presumably in the hope that the country comes to its senses before the cliff edge intervenes.

Personally speaking, both have gone down in my estimation, but it is probably clever politics nevertheless.

Placemat King

Why can't they use the term "Common Travel Area" (

Because there is an implicit threat to Ireland when the term Schengen Area is used. It fudges the arrangement to suggest that free travel back and forth was a condition associated with membership of the EU. Once the UK leaves the EU, according to the threat, the Common Travel Area Schengen Area will no longer obtain. Ireland can 'whistle' when it comes to trade or job opportunities or students attending UK universities.

I think there are circles in the UK government and certainly in UK public opinion (cf the Country Squire 'Eire' article from the other thread that ended with the thought that even if Ireland begged to rejoin the UK why would the UK allow that) that believe that Ireland really would leave the EU because Ireland knows what side its bread is buttered on (they assume Ireland is kept afloat by trade with the UK and trade with the UK only, along with UK jobs for young Irish people). This is echoed in Paisley Junior's comment a little while ago that Ireland should be thinking about leaving the EU. They have it all worked out, in their echo chamber. No more Ireland, no more border.

I find the 'fragility' of Leavers, or the supposed fragility, very annoying. The entire campaign had a whole "You mustn't call them stupid", "You mustn't call us stupid - it's because people imply we're stupid that we're going to vote Leave, nyer, nyer" discourse runing through it - it was utterly, utterly bewildering. And remains so.

I think there is a habit of the left/liberals to believe that essentially everyone is reasonable and acting in a logical way. That if we could just understand them better and explain things in the right way without judgement we could all get along and agree to play nice. We worry so much about being prejudiced or hurtful that we often fail to condemn and call out hate and stupidity with the clarity it deserves.

I sometimes find myself tied in liberal, guardian reading knots when I come up against pure, unadulterated bigoted idiocy and have to remind myself of that fabulous mumsnet phrase "you can't argue with batshit crazy". It is my Twitter mantra.

@JolyonMaugham
6770 votes. 74% think there's a risk Charlottesville could happen here. It's good we're not complacent about fascism in the UK.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-theresa-may-eu-law-great-repeal-bill-henry-viii-powers-house-of-commons-a7891266.html

Tories attempt to hijack powerful decision-making committee to ram through new post-Brexit laws

If the Tories go ahead with this, there will be a dust-up in September

In the last Parliament, the Conservatives claimed five of the nine MPs on the committee, but officials have advised they are entitled to four only, after their Commons majority was destroyed.

Nevertheless, when talks broke up in acrimony as the summer recess began, the Tories were still insisting on five MPs – and the power to defeat the other parties.

The source added: “The Tories are trying to pretend the election didn’t happen and that they still have a majority – and, therefore, should have the majority on this committee.

“That would be obnoxious in the normal course of things but, in the context of a Parliament likely to be passing massive amounts of legislation through statutory instruments, it becomes an outrage

The problem with calling out the victims of Brexit (re: Wilkos) is that it hands a free pass to people to blame everything on Brexit.

How many Brexiteer businessmen will use Brexit as a cover for their own incompetence ?

It's a horrifying spiral into the future - it'll leave scars for generations

Placemat

De-lurking for the first time in months to firstly thank Red (and others) for continuing these threads. But also to thank whoever it was who (several threads ago) recommended Peter Frankopan's 'The Silk Roads' which has been my holiday reading this summer. An really good read and surprisingly soothing to look at world events from such a long view.

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-scotland-salmond-idUKKCN1AT0MR

Uh-oh. Davis appearance at an Alex Salmond Edinburgh Fringe show - trying to portray himself as the "sense of humour" guy.

.

One reason for the falling pound: it's being exported to Europe ...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/13/brexit-uk-retirees-rushing-to-settle-in-europe-say-financial-advisers

British retirees are rushing to settle in European countries such as Spain, Portugal and France before the Brexit deadline, according to financial advisers, believing that such a move will become significantly more difficult in the future.

One company that supports those moving to mainland Europe after they finish working revealed that the number of monthly inquiries to its website had doubled in a year, while actual business was up by 25%.

It came as experts said it was extremely unlikely that any post-Brexit deals with European countries would allow Britons to continue to move overseas in their later years as easily they can do now.

(contd)

Given the amount of dual-nationality debates Brexit has sparked, here's how Australia deals with dual nationals.

Anyone with me in believing that some Breiteers would read this and think "what a good idea" ?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-40920141

New Zealand's government has confirmed that Australia's deputy prime minister, Barnaby Joyce, is a dual citizen.

Dual citizens are not allowed to run for public office under Australia's constitution.

(contd) ...

It came as experts said it was extremely unlikely that any post-Brexit deals with European countries would allow Britons to continue to move overseas in their later years as easily they can do now.

I wonder how many of those retirees voted Leave? As a retired person myself, I have thought about it in passing, but that's as far as it went. But hey, I should be allowed to go, because I voted Remain.

Peregrina I considered it as well - though to Ireland because of family ties, not for the sun and sangria...but ultimately decided not to as have closer family here in England and would miss seeing them frequently and easily. I feel real anger when I think of Brexit and how it will limit my grandchildren's future - how I regret not registering my own DC's births before the grand kids came along.

Lh I fear businesses may use a post-Brexit slump as a pretext for freezing or cutting wages, to compete in the eglobal market
My even worse fear is that will be indeed the only way some of those businesses can survive, competing outside EU protection with the wages of China, India.

Another major concern about Brexit is that is gives this government

• and how many governments in the future ? - the excuse to take more power - to make Brexit work

and that those who wanted to "take back control" are eagerly supporting this power grab

• the hard right taking even more control away from the electorate -

and shouting down any who object.

Brexit voters are overwhelmingly those with more authoritarian views.
Those figures on support for capital punishment, for corporal punishment in schools are very revealing.

All of DHs family voted leave (not DH). We sat opened mouth a few weeks ago when MIL announced she's planning to move to Spain. Her and FIL are retired and struggle to make ends meet with the rising costs, she's figured her money will go further out in Spain. When DH queried how far their money would go with the low pound and no access to free healthcare she genuinely said that the pound would become stronger than ever once we left properly and said that brits will still get free healthcare in Spain because they need all the pensioners out there propping up their economy!

People - and Uk negotiators - keep forgetting
that although the number of EU expats in the UK is 3 million, compared to the UK expats of 1.2 million

the UK has actually the highest number of expats affected by Brexit:
1.2 million vs 900,000 Polish expats in the Uk, other E27 expats much lower

As with the loss of trade, people keep overestimating the strength of the UK negotiating position and underestimating the effects of Brexit

Even the EU's original proposal to keep all existing rights was for expats only
not future jobseekers or retirees
The tentative proposal that other Brits could apply for EU citizenship has rather died away, due to its complexity and timing constraints

UK Retired expats

Spain:
108,000 UK pensioners
300,000 total UK

Information to the HoC Health Select Committee from Paul MacNaught, Dept of Health:

Those who worked in the UK, but retired to the EU:
Spain: 90,000 (so most of the 108,000 pensioners there)
Ireland: 44,000
France : 43,000
Cyprus: 12,000.

MacNaught told the committee that pensioners living abroad were costing the taxpayer less money

average cost of £2,300 per year to the UK in payments to local health providers
compared to £4,500 to support a pensioner in the UK.

That sounds like the E27 health systems have enough spare capacity that they only need charge the UK for the time of HCPs plus meds etc

whereas the 110,000 UK pensioner expats would mean increased capital expenditure building more hospitals and GP surgeries, as well as - from the Brexit Unicorn Bucket - adding additional doctors and other HCPs

There is insufficient spare capacity in the NHS to suddenly take in such a large number of elderly returnees who are much higher need than the generally young and fit E27 expats who would leave - including a disproportionate number of specialist doctors, as well as other HCPs and carers.

Of course the 110,000 returning pensioners only includes those who worked in the Uk, but moved to sunnier E27 climes to retire.
I don't have the total figures that include those who worked in the E27, made their lives and retired there, or planned to do so.

she genuinely said that the pound would become stronger than ever once we left properly and said that brits will still get free healthcare in Spain because they need all the pensioners out there propping up their economy!

LOL! Hey, does she post on MN? I've seen a number of Leavers on Brexit threads expressing very similar sentiments

The dangers of Brexit are political, maybe as serious as the economic and human cost:

Will those who suffer after Brexit blame Brexit and those politicians who promised unicorns - or look for scapegoats ?

People - and Uk negotiators - keep forgetting that although the number of EU expats in the UK is 3 million, compared to the UK expats of 1.2 million

Absolutely - largely because of the insistence of Leavers of thinking of the EU countries as one indistinguishable mass (as it better suits their narrative) rather than individual countries with rather less to lose individually in terms of their migrants and trade than us in most cases.

Many people who have a delusional vision of post-Brexit prosperity would blame EU "punishment" and Remainer "treachery" when this doesn't magically appear

Not a prospect for future social or political stability

Thanks for the thread, Red.

The problem with the Ex pats in Spain is that its "officially" 300,000. Our NDN in leafy North London officially live here, but are actually resident on the Costa Del, returning every so often to see family, see their GP etc. We know of others who spend the winter months there and just return for the late spring and summer here.

The point regarding Brits abroad is a good one, whenever people discuss the E.U they do so like its one country.

YEs there are more EU immigrants here than we have officially in the EU, but they come from 27 different countries.

Yes if there are Tariffs the E.U will have to pay them, but that will be divided across 27 countries and 450 million people. Our's will be paid by us and our 65 million people, the difference that the EU will be paying a few billion higher starts to pail into insignificance then.