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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 19:59

Surely if hes lost Fox trump has....lost?

squoosh · 19/08/2017 20:07

A few sad faces at Fox News doesn't mean they've abandoned him just yet. More that they're trying to tread that fine line between appealing to the people who are a lot racist and those who are a a little racist.

Peregrina · 19/08/2017 20:17

I mean of course we don't care about the money, and would rather it went to making sure he is well cared for and happy.

I understand where you are coming from ron and others. We have been going through the same with our own family. However, we do need a proper debate about how we are going to pay for care, but throwing out the idea during an election campaign, and a particularly badly run one at that, wasn't the way to do it.

mathanxiety · 19/08/2017 20:22

If it's true that Boris has changed his mind, could it be because of Mogg coming up fast on the rails?

Mogg has much of the same upstream troutishness that has got Boris this far in politics, and it is possible that he senses that the voters of England (and I mean England) are complete suckers for a plummy accent.

I think Mogg is a strong contender for leadership of the Tories, because hearkening back to the days of WW2, the blackout, the rationing, the sense of Britain's back to the wall appeals to something very deep in the national psyche, as does the Churchill thing, where the old aristocrat (or someone who sounds like one or dresses like a caricature of one) digs deep and finds a way to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Ted Heath's 3 day week and power cuts did not result in a resounding victory for Labour in 1974, as BigChoc pointed out. I suspect there was something about sitting shivering in the dark that felt deeply familiar and very satisfying to many voters.

Is there something in the English that relishes coming together against some perceived enemy, and putting up with almost anything as long as some old fashioned type in tweed can fine tune the rhetoric to convince ordinary voters that it is Dunkirk time all over again? The same people will not come together to pay enough taxes to create and sustain a 'civilized society in a highly developed country' - BigChoc again. It always has to be a case of flying by the seat of your pants, making do and mending.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 20:25

Effects of Devaluation on foreign visits & spends

< My calculation = Uk / foreign visitors indicate net £560m lost to the Uk economy due to devaluation

spending in the UK by visitors from abroad increased by £43m
but spending by Brits visiting abroad increased by £600m >

ONS (Office for National Statistics) just for June, compared to June 2016:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/leisureandtourism/bulletins/overseastravelandtourism/provisionalresultsforjune2017

Overseas residents made 3.5 million visits to the UK in June 2017; this has increased by 7% when compared with June 2016.

UK residents made 7.2 million visits abroad in June 2017; this has increased by 4% when compared with June 2016.

Overseas residents spent £2.2 billion on their visits to the UK in June 2017; this is an increase of 2% when compared with June 2016.

UK residents spent £4.6 billion on their visits abroad in June 2017, a 15% increase when compared with June 2016.

Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 20:27

How would bojo do that though?
A press conference?

  • as an aside the only thing that made me smile on 24th june last year was bojo and gove nearly crying and insisting we still had a close relationship with Europe
BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 20:28

That's £560 lost just in June
Puts the £350 £250m for the NHS into perspective:
just the effect of devaluation on visits

Think of how devaluation affects industry with its raw material and component imports.
Think of all the other affects that Brexit will bring wrt trade & industry, travel ...

lalalonglegs · 19/08/2017 20:31

Knope - I imagine he would write an article/give an interview to whichever paper he feels would give him the best treatment.

Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 20:32

The standard??? 😂

TheElementsSong · 19/08/2017 20:35

but spending by Brits visiting abroad increased by £600m

An obvious solution suggests itself, something to do with patriotically never leaving Albion's shores?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 20:36

Moggy appeals to the persistent British - mainly English - wish to defer to their smooth talking aristocratic betters

I thought Cameron and his Bullingdon clique was just a one-off, but he may have been the start of a trend.

Anyone doubting that England clings to relics of feudalism need only consider how the disgraceful leasehold property system has been allowed to continue

A German acquaintance, who is a banker, has just discovered leasehold and is totally amazed:
"What a system, wow, that's medieval !"

Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 20:40

Feudal even

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 20:41

If someone is really ancient, they may remember how there were once currency restrictions when traveling abroad and also restrictions generally about moving money abroad.

If the Tories can figure out how to bring that back only for the little people, not the wealthy, then that's another part of the glorious past to which the UK can return.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 20:44

A few Tory MPs claimed they would leave if Moggy became leader.
We shall see - or hopefully we won't !

However, if he does manage to stay through the MP voting rounds and become one of the final 2 candidates, then the Tory party members will elect him leader - they adore him

woman12345 · 19/08/2017 21:11

they adore him should think labour would be pretty happy with him too. Smile Alex Douglas Holme, with a more than a little 'ultra conservative' darkness. That should do nicely.

Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 21:19

If mogg became leader the Tories would prob not regain power again in my lifetime
So...not all bad

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 21:26

Any Labour supporters who want Moggy in the belief that he'll be a disaster for the Tories.....
Remember those Tories who joined Labour to vote for Corbyn ? Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 21:27

In desperate situations, voters consider desperate remedies.
Mogg qualifies as that

twofingerstoEverything · 19/08/2017 21:35

Will not break an embargo but to let you know DExEU releasing Brexit news at midnight.

Maybe they'll be reporting the first unicorn sightings.

woman12345 · 19/08/2017 21:48

In desperate situations BJ is potentially the first of Chappers collateral, I think there will be more. Tories are quite good at this sort of thing.

Cherrypi · 19/08/2017 21:51

Is it worth staying up for the embargo?

woman12345 · 19/08/2017 22:02

Mogg

A leading Conservative backbencher has been reported to Parliament's standards watchdog for potentially breaching the rules on declaring financial interests in the House of Commons.

Jacob Rees-Mogg spoke in four debates in the Chamber in support of the tobacco, mining and oil and gas industries without declaring that he is a founder and director of a firm with multimillion-pound investments in the sectors.

The Commons code of conduct states that MPs must disclose any financial interest or benefit they have, directly or indirectly, if speaking during relevant debates in the House. Mr Rees-Mogg is a founding partner and director of Somerset Capital Management, a firm whose funds hold investments worth £23m in tobacco companies, £3.07m in mining firms, and £2.4m in oil and gas producers

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/tory-backbench-mp-jacob-rees-mogg-failed-to-declare-interests-9923362.html.

Jacob Rees-Mogg’s after-dinner speech to group calling on Doreen Lawrence to ‘go home

However, it has emerged that the MP had been warned about the group by Searchlight, the anti-fascist organisation, the day before his speech and still decided to deliver it. The organisation describes itself as a “home to the disillusioned patriot

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-s-after-dinner-speech-to-group-calling-on-doreen-lawrence-to-go-home-8752995.html

He passed through the no lobby on the vote for same-sex marriage and wants to repeal the Human Rights Act. He penned a column for the Telegraph in defence of precarious zero-hours contracts. When it comes to climate change, a mantra of “why bother?” sums up his approach, and he is unembarrassed by his links to energy firms

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/20/jacob-rees-mogg-tory-leader-no-laughing-matter

SwedishEdith · 19/08/2017 23:45

Norbert Lieckfeldt @nlieck
Replying to @davidallengreen

I'm quite knackered. Worth staying up for?

David Allen Green‏

No.

Damp squib when it comes. That is why the "strict embargo" is so dumb. Just for domestic media consumption.David Allen Green added,

SwedishEdith · 20/08/2017 00:09

DexEU are going to release some more position papers this week. That's it. That's the "news".

bathildabagshot1 · 20/08/2017 00:24

Ah Mogg, the great succes story. Not.

He's a loser. He had the best money education can buy as well as that of independent family wealth, and all the connections that being the son of the editor of the Times allows you.

Don't believe me?

Eton educated, got a 2nd at Oxford. Poor show really.

As a child he was allowed to sit in and ask questions at AGM meetings of share holders, when he wasn't legally allowed to own shares, and the ones that were owned for him were very small investments.

He walked into an investment bankers job with a Hong Kong firm with his 2nd in History, but never really excelled, his portfolios followed the markets. He was however allowed significant time off to run for parliament twice, on both occasions he failed.

Still a back bencher, no significant select commitee appointments despite running for some.

His appointment as Chairman at another investment firm is a tactial one, he didn't significantly fund the capital for the firm, nor is he an outstanding player in the investment field. He does however have the right connections, the right club memberships, and can network people because of these and this is the asset to the firm

He has all he has because he was bought it or endowed with it from family, he's achieved nothing.

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