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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
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annandale · 19/08/2017 16:12

Bloody hell Big choc does that mean we'll be in the middle of a huge recession, nhs collapsing from lack of staff, food prices soaring due to poor harvest staffing, having to do national service volunteering at customs ports and we sit down at the end of a long hungry day to find BJ on the telly doing a press conference apology? I can think of few things I would want less.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 16:22

If a Brexit recession or ports / flights / shops chaos looks likely, Bojo won't want his name to go down in history as one of those who helped cause it.

He might keep his promise and do a mea culpa
or he might chicken out before then and swan off to the US, Belize or Monaco, wherever most of the fat cats evacuate to.

I'm fairly sure that the Atlantic Brudge gang won't make more than occasional trips to the UK, to check on their trussed and chlorinated poodle.

LurkingHusband · 19/08/2017 16:44

Those of us of a certain age will recall a certain Jim Hacker, MP, lecturing his under secretary about the inappropriate use of the word "problem", and suggested the substitution of the word "opportunity".

At which point, the under secretary (correctly) pointed out that some opportunities may prove insoluble ....

LurkingHusband · 19/08/2017 16:46

Seen elsewhere ....

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
Knope2020 · 19/08/2017 16:57

If only more would make their regrets known LH

whatwouldrondo · 19/08/2017 16:57

I agree, it's a massive issue, but it is already. The point I was making Big Choc is that many people did not realise that you already pay for your care if you have more than 23k of asserts, albeit if you are at home that does not include your home. That was what I was hearing on the doorstep from in the main age 60+ people. I was mostly canvassing on Council estates as well. Huge anger about the policy but in reality the anger I was hearing directed at the Tories was not at the proposed changes but at the existing policy that has evolved without most people realising it. In fact the nickname itself, the dementia tax arises from the argument that you should not be singled out to pay by virtue of the fact that your age related illness is dementia as opposed to heart disease or arthritis where the NHS would provide the care. I heard widespread criticism on the grounds that people would be deterred from seeking help etc. But all of that applies anyway to current policy. I was in the weird position of trying to explain the policy of the rival party - just for once it was a bit of a relief that most people don't listen to you anyway!

It was a stupid thing to put in a manifesto because they should have realised that many people don't understand the reality of existing policy until they or a relative need care and as with schools policy it is always best to keep it that way. However I do think it had an unfair airing in the Press, not surprisingly, it was excellent click bait for Mail and Express readers, and was widely misunderstood. Hoisted by their own petard but I do not think Labour supporters can argue the Press only had it in for Corbyn....

We have just sold the FILs house and his estate is disappearing at the rate of 6k per month. We do not care but he takes great pleasure and pride in what he thinks will flow to his children and grandchildren, after a life of service to his country, and of living under the kosh of mean MIL modestly . In the end we will probably only have the gongs to show for it.......

whatwouldrondo · 19/08/2017 17:03

I mean of course we don't care about the money, and would rather it went to making sure he is well cared for and happy.

Bearbehind · 19/08/2017 17:53

Do you reckon the MG who wrote that article is Michael Gove?

twofingerstoEverything · 19/08/2017 18:02

the Department for Exiting the EU if looking for a speechwriter. Expected start date as soon as possible.
Don't all rush.
"The Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) is responsible for providing leadership across government to ensure we get the best deal for Britain and put in place a deep and special relationship with the EU."

TheElementsSong · 19/08/2017 18:22

twofingers try posting on the Brexit Arms. Plenty of very articulate and cosmically intelligent Leavers there who see only opportunities, and have some very inspirational ideas for our future special relationship with the EU Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 18:30

Business: Uncertainty is starting to bite

< must spank my negative arse for not concentrating on the opportunities >

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/08/14/listen-to-businesses-now-we-urgently-need-a-transitional-deal/

"The moment for putting contingency plans into place is drawing nearer – and not just for the financial services firms whose moves have been making headlines over the past few weeks.

Every firm with contingency plans has a different tipping point, based on March 2019 as exit day and counting backwards through the time they’ll need to put plans in place.

A Belfast-based customer services company that needs six months to set up a centre in Europe will be able to wait until October next year.

A company making medicines in the Midlands that needs 18 months to establish a laboratory in Europe can’t wait much longer.
.....
Many automotive production lines are 18 months long, and sellers don’t know if they need to factor in the cost of tariffs.

Airlines are about to start selling seats for flights in 2019, and they don’t know what legal basis there will be to fly between the UK and Europe.”

< I read in a btl comment on North's blog that
O'Leary has stated Ryanair will refuse to take UK bookings after some date next year >

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 18:32

My understanding is that the legal vacuum is not just Uk flights to / from Europe, but any flight out of Uk airspace

MyRedPepper · 19/08/2017 18:35

.

OlennasWimple · 19/08/2017 18:36

We're fucked, aren't we?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 18:38

Ron I spent several years organizing my mum's care at home, then a care home, finally a 24-hr nursing home
So, I wrongly assumed that most voters know about homecare vs care home fees

You gave me a very useful reality check : before my Mum's dementia started, I didn't know all this either - oops !

BiglyBadgers · 19/08/2017 18:40

Sounds like we all have a great opportunity to take our holidays in the UK thanks to Brexit..(am I doing this right? Wink )

LurkingHusband · 19/08/2017 18:44

A company making medicines in the Midlands that needs 18 months to establish a laboratory in Europe can’t wait much longer.

I wonder if there's any connection with the sudden and (as of writing for LH) unexplained shortage of a certain glaucoma medicine ?

Going blind for Brexit Hmm. I guess it's a small price to pay.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 18:48

LH I enjoyed watching Yes Minister and then Yes PM
However, I don't enjoy watching such idiot politicians in real life grappling with our most difficult post-WW2 problem / opportunity.

And definitely not when they've sacked clever Sir Humphrey and even his minions are staying well out of it.

(btw, I saw repeats later on German TV - universal appreciation of a master work !)

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 18:53

Lh Is it something your doctor could order from abroad privately, or even for you to pick up on a day trip to Paris, or Frankfurt etc ?

If so, that depends on being able to afford it. Nice.
Or is the shortage across Europe, hence the need for another factory ?

bathildabagshot1 · 19/08/2017 18:57

Love yes minister.

Especially the "who reads the papers" scene.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 19:08

I keep thinking SUEZ about Brexit.

When British arrogance and delusions of power were last slapped down (then by the US)

Suez signalled the end of the British Empire, to Britain's unrealistic pretensions of being a world power.
It permanently changed the strategy of the British ruling class, who crawled to the US superpower

Suez has always fascinated me, being the year of my birth Smile

woman12345 · 19/08/2017 19:09

unexplained shortage of a certain glaucoma medicine
Do you want us to look out for it LH? serious offer.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 19/08/2017 19:09

Something I discovered yesterday is that one of the Whitehall departments that is lacking a chief scientific advisor is... DfExEU

SwedishEdith · 19/08/2017 19:49

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

Will not break an embargo but to let you know DExEU releasing Brexit news at midnight.

For benefit and convenience of Sunday press

Significant Brexit news should be released either directly to public (as EU does) or to parliament.

Not at midnight, with media trailing.

woman12345 · 19/08/2017 19:51

Smile Wondering if Bannon's statement that Trump's presidency has just ended; huge demonstration against hatred in Boston; BJ's possible early departure may bring good news for remain?

Has the tide started to turn?

(murdoch Hmm)