Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

[RedToothBrush]

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

Wrt knee jerk reactions to feminism and the rise of fascism, take a look at this article (it's been picked up by numerous sites) entitled 'Mens-Rights Activism Is the Gateway Drug for the Alt-Right'.

www.thecut.com/2017/08/mens-rights-activism-is-the-gateway-drug-for-the-alt-right.html

its what I find so hilarious about the brexiteers appeals to patriotism.

The real patriots in all of this are the people who have put their careers (political or otherwise) and personal safety on the line to defend their country from ideologues, know-nothings and egotists.

Comparison of UK and US tax rates is notoriously difficult. I had a go a couple of years back and was surprised to discover that when you took the federal and state taxes into account, along with social security, it came out about the same for someone on the respective median income. I can't remember which state I did this for, but the Guardian has done a more comprehensive study for New York State and reached the same conclusion: www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-australia-us
And then you have to add health insurance on top which apparently around $4000 per person. I was surprised when I did the first calculation, but an American colleague who had paid into both systems confirmed that this was her experience.

Apparently we seem to have one of the lower tax burdens of comparator nations.

And yet eeeeo we have this idea that we can't possibly raise taxes. Instead we have to reduce the money for public services and cut the NHS. The right has successfully managed to create a myth that the NHS is unaffordable and public sector is blotted and expensive. In reality we really don't spend that much on either and plenty of other countries pay more tax than we do.

John McDonnell: ‘The government could collapse at any time. We’ve got to divide and demoralise them’

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/18/john-mcdonnell-labour-interview-power-tories-incompetent

< McDonnell and Corbyn would welcome a cliff edge / chaotic Brexit, because a desperate and angry country is their best chance of sweeping to power with their version of socialism and wiping out the Tories for a generation.

So, whatever platitudes / rhetoric they may spout, don't expect them in practice to help soften the effects of Brexit: it's not in their interest >

Blotted = bloated.

I pay significantly higher taxes in Germany.
For that, I get excellent public services, efficient and reasonably priced transport etc

Housing is far cheaper, even near Frankfurt, so standard of living is nevertheless higher for most people.
There are fewer billionaires here though.

All the main parties agree on taxation to properly fund the social contract, public infrastructure and services.
There is mutual agreement on what a civilized society in a highly developed country must provide

Somehow, the policies that Lexiters say the country needs, turn out to be Tory policies.

Brexit is the Tory hard right rampant - surprising that Lexiters think they help anyone but the wealthy.

Here is the section from the Guardian's oddly hagiographic McDonnell "interview" that BigChoc seems to be referring to:

McDonnell, like Corbyn, is a longtime Eurosceptic in the mould of Tony Benn, regarding the EU as a project geared more to the interests of financial elites than ordinary workers. During last year’s referendum, he and Corbyn backed the party’s decision to stay in but they rarely joined in with the enthusiastically pro-EU Labour campaign run by Alan Johnson, promoting instead a more sceptical message of “remain and reform”, alongside figures including former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis.

Now, he urges his party to step back from what he calls “arcane” arguments about which EU institutions Britain will remain a member of in 2019 – and think instead about the practical benefits they want the new relationship with the EU27 to deliver. “The problem is, it’s become theological,” he says. “Whatever I say, I either get condemned as a hard Brexiteer, if I’ve stated an obvious fact – or I then get condemned for selling out the referendum. It’s like angels on the head of a pin. The bottom line for me, is the new relationship we have with Europe should be designed on the basis that we can implement our manifesto.”

On the free movement of people, for example, he would support any solution that would end the undercutting of wages: something he believes is possible without pulling up the drawbridge. “We’ve always defended freedom of movement in principle; but [it] cannot be on the basis that it undermines standards of living in this country – and therefore we address that issue in a practical way.” This could be done, he says, by measures to stop the exploitation of workers, better enforcement of the minimum wage and making sure public services are funded well enough to cope with new migrants to an area.

This consummate outsider, who has been advocating the same radical economic ideas from the sidelines of British political life for a generation, genuinely believes he could be about to win power. “We’re working on the basis that the government could collapse at any time,” he says. “We’ve got to do everything we possibly can to divide and demoralise them, and push that collapse, because that’s coming. But do that in a way that demonstrates that we are an alternative government, ready to go in.”

I didn't come up with the same interpretation. Quite clearly, the 'collapse' is referring to the Tory government, and not the country.

Unless they think the first step to rescuing the country has to be a chaotic national emergency post-Brexit,
so that Labour can come to power

When we look back at the whittling away of taxation in Britain over the last 30-40 years, I can see how easy it is for this whole shitshow to have happened.

If the pretty high taxation around, including during Thatcher's time, was still the case, and the almost 50% council house provision in 1979, functioning NHS and transport system were still in place, I wonder if this sordid little brexit would have got purchase.

He is referring to the collapse of the Tory party, but that will only happen if Brexit is a disaster
A successful Brexit, even a hard one, would keep the Tories - the hard right in particular - in power for a generation.

I don't underestimate the instinct of the Uk electorate to blame the EU and the center- left for any troubles.
It is probably only a real collapse, like Richard North fears, that would bring in a majority Labour government.
i.e. empty supermarket shelves, international flights stopped, ports jammed, motorway network a vast lorry park ...

Even after Ted Heath's bungling govt imposed a 3-day week and we had frequent power cuts, sitting in the dark in the evenings ...
In the1974 GE he called, Labour only scraped in

I don't read it that way at all BigChoc. I read it as them continuing to avoid the issue as much as possible and then sit all over the bloody fence rather than commit one way or another. It is infuriating me to be honest.

However, I don't see them actually wanting a chaotic exit. It sounds to me like he thinks labour will win the next election whatever happens with Brexit. The comments on FoM seem to suggest they are wanting to reform in a way that could be done within the EU or outside it.

I remember: yay, great excuse not to do homework.
Unfortunately that was for revision iirc a few months before A levels

It is infuriating me to be honest.
Me too Bigly especially what he said about immigration and wages. Labour's polling is showing signs of slippage, although JC's leadership numbers beat May's slightly.

I'm not going on the article so much, as what I think Labour's strategy is for the future
During the GE, they clearly wanted to appeal to as many voters as possible, Leavers & Remainers.

Now however, their way to power is best served by a disaster.

For the last few years, the Tory party has clearly put retaining power over the interests of the country.
Now Labour have an equally ruthless cabal at the top and prioritized gaining power

Looking back at the last GE:

• The Tory campaign was chaotic and unfocused
• They did not use social media properly
• May had by far the worst campaign of any Tory leader in modern history
• The Tory manifesto proposed taking a big chunk of money from their core vote for what is now free (however fair that might be), then U-turned helplessly

Will the next Tory campaign, under a new leader with fresh image, really be that bad ?
Remember, Labour actually lost this last GE.

Unless Brexit is chaos, I expect the Tories to win a GE on a plucky Fortress Britain campaign

The interesting thing about that article though is that it clearly implies that the 'ruthless cabal' do not really agree with you BigChoc and believe that the Tories are going to collapse no matter what, in fact that they have pretty much already collapsed. I don't think McDonald thinks that labour need a cliff edge brexit to get in. I suspect he feels brexit has already been a disaster for the Tories and labour will sweep in no matter what happens. If the assumption is that they will get in than actually a completely decimated economy will not be very helpful for labour enacting their manifesto pledges, so a cliff edge brexit is not so desirable.

My feeling is that they will continue to sit on the fence for a while to see which way the wind blows and to piss me right off they will then commit themselves to Brexit or no brexit depending on which they think is most popular.

I thought the problem with the current Labour leadership was that they weren't interested in winning elections.

My personal view is that Labour faces an uphill struggle to win the next election under this leadership or any other: May's uselessness probably contributed more to the Labour surge in the last election than anything else. The Tories definitely won't make that mistake again, and they will run with a more populist manifesto. I don't think Tory uselessness will necessarily lead to a collapse of the country, but sufficient Tory uselessness might be enough for Labour to get a majority.

Remember, Labour actually lost this last GE.

True, but also remember that the assumption on all sides was that labour would be decimated and the Tories would gallop home with a record breaking majority. Every paper agreed this was the case. Pretty much all media was depicting the Labour leadership as bungling, dangerous losers who would destroy the party. This was not an election fought on a level playing field.

Of courses I do agree that it won't be as easy a ride a I get the impression the labour leadership might now think. The Tories are practically teflon it seems.

bigly No politician is going to publicly say they want chaos
These are the usual platitudes that their rise to power is inevitable in the course of history.

Same as the Tory hard right, who also need a sufficiently desperate population to acquiesce to removal of workers rights and slashing the welfare state

Both political extremes want chaos, but none of them are daft enough to say so in public

May's problem was that people suddenly realized she wasn't in charge and had no ideas other than a robotic "Brexit means Brexit"

A new Tory leader with good PR skills, who looks commanding and who can crack a few jokes - I'm getting really worried about Moggy - would do much better than May
BUT
only if Brexit, however hard, does not result in a disruption of normal life for most people

Labour are fighting against a serious roadblock:

The Tories are the party of Brexit and Labour won't get any credit if it appears to "work", i.e. damage in their own lives is at an acceptable level to voters.

Most people will do anything rather than admit they've been conned and made a serious mistake.
Brexit would have to be a visible disaster - hence after the event - before this could happen.

Even then, most Leavers will blame EU punishment and Remainer sabotage, not Brexit and not the Tories who brought it about.

BigChoc if you put it like that then we are both basing our positions purely on hunches and personal belief. So, you can say labour is a ruthless cabal seeking only chaos and power, and I can say I don't think they are. Not much further can go from there.

Moggy is a worry, loathsome man, but plays to the British adoration of the upper classes and can take the place of mildly amusing toff vacated by Boris now he is irreparably damaged goods. If he chucked in some policies rolling back austerity a bit he could be in with a chance I think.