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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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woman12345 · 18/08/2017 18:30

does anyone else find autocorrect writes "Shite Ouse"
No, but that'll do nicely for the moment. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 18:30

Human Rights: I want the EU variety, not the chlorinated US ones

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 18:33

Them there fascists do love to come after women, the poor as well as black and Jewish people. Always did and always will. Did you read about rape insurance for abortion? www.standard.co.uk/news/world/texas-bans-all-insurance-coverage-for-abortions-forcing-women-to-take-out-rape-insurance-a3612906.html
Texas bans all insurance coverage for abortions, forcing women to take out 'rape insurance

PattyPenguin · 18/08/2017 19:11

Back to Brexit... I've just got round to reading about the Institute for Economic Affairs' report.

I do hope the Leave-voting farmers appreciate the following aspect.

The report says that "the UK could remove all import barriers to achieve lower prices for consumers, increased productivity and higher wages.
...
British consumers could benefit from the removal of all tariffs because the UK would be able to import goods at lower prices from countries on which the EU imposes high tariffs, such as oranges from South Africa, according to the IEA. Such tariffs protect the livelihoods of domestic producers, although 92% of UK workers are employed in sectors that do not benefit from such measures, according to the report.

Although removing tariffs could result in job losses for the 8% of British workers in protected sectors, such as farming, the IEA said new roles could be created to offset the losses."

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 21:10

(paywall) Trump faces Republican rebellion as Charlottesville crisis deepens

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/trump-faces-party-rebellion-as-charlottesville-race-row-crisis-deepens-drzjwp3bs

President Trump appeared increasingly isolated last night over his response to the racist violence in Virginia after he scrapped two White House business advisory panels to halt a wave of resignations and faced mounting condemnation from leaders of his own party.

Prominent Republicans joined Democrats, world leaders and some of the most powerful chief executives in the US in criticising Mr Trump’s defiant remarks on Tuesday,
in which he insisted that “both sides” were to blame for clashes in Charlottesville.

His Republican predecessors in the White House, George Bush Sr and George W Bush, also made a rare political intervention, issuing a joint statement yesterday that warned:
“America must always reject racial bigotry, antisemitism and hatred in all its forms.”

The heads of the US Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and Navy have all issued condemnations of racism, bigotry and white supremacist ideology in recent days,
breaking with their usual reluctance to engage with politics.

Mourners gathered in Charlottesville yesterday for the funeral of Heather Heyer, the 32-year-old woman killed when an alleged Nazi sympathiser rammed his car into a group of protesters opposing the rally on Saturday.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 21:20

Worrying article about how women are being radicalized by the alt-right online.

Interesting that both men and women who were not particularly rightwing, or were even on the left, became drawn to alt right sites because they were anti-feminist

http://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/internet/2017/08/we-need-talk-about-online-radicalisation-young-white-women

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 21:22

Prominent Republicans joined Democrats, world leaders and some of the most powerful chief executives in the US in criticising Mr Trump’s defiant remarks on Tuesday
It certainly is a turning point.
www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.807279
Can't say Clinton didn't warn us^

@Nigel_Farage

Very sorry to see my friend Steve Bannon go. His political brain will be hard to replace.

HashiAsLarry · 18/08/2017 21:23

If you want a good laugh, look at the responses to that a Farage tweet.

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 21:25

Bigly R4 Women's Hour did a reasonable slot on the right wing extremists and women today.
Protests in the American city of Charlottesville have dominated the headlines this week, but how much of this debate is fought along gender lines?
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b090vdk3

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 21:25

Fox News backs Trump. Trump backs Nazis. Awkward

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/17/trump-nazis-fox-news

There was precious little to laugh about in the US this week, save for one grimly comic spectacle:

that of rightwing news anchors struggling, live on air, to react to incontrovertible evidence that the president they’ve been backing is a neo-Nazi apologist.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 21:38

Now I'm shocked: Confused

Netanyahu took 3 days to come up with a condemnation of neo-nazism, slipped out in an English-language tweet.
and
some white supremacists like Richard Spencer - whose rally chanted "Heil Trump" -
and those at Charlottsville who chanted "Jews shall not replace us"
find common cause with the far right in Israel.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2017/aug/17/why-americas-antisemites-can-hate-jews-but-still-claim-to-admire-israel

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 21:56

Yep, BigChoc Netanyahu is a right wing doo da of which the knesset has more than its fair share at the moment too. Israeli politics get distorted by the PR system in which the extreme right wing zealots, many of them religious nuts (from America) hold sway at the moment. They are reviled by secular Israelis, not least for their extremist stances on women and the burgeoning LGBT freedoms in places like Tel Aviv.

There is the Israeli labour party which under the prime minister Barak kept the country relatively more democratic and socialist in the 1990s.

In the recent elections, the Joint List of predominantly Arab parties received as much as 97% support in some Arab communities (in Umm al-Fahm, for instance), whereas the number of people voting for the Labor Party or Meretz was negligible. This is the case even though the Labor Party dominated the Arab sector until 2000. In fact, in the 1999 elections, Arab voters even helped to bring Labor Party leader Ehud Barak to power. They threw massive support behind him in his quest to be prime minister

www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/israel-arab-ultra-orthodox-sectors-growth-demography-power.html#ixzz4q8renf6l

Of course Israeli Arabs are represented in the Knesset.

The collapse of labour and socialist parties across Europe, America and in Israel has been the free pass for extreme right everywhere, so far.

My late MIL was labour in Israel and conservative in England. Smile

BestIsWest · 18/08/2017 21:59

Placemarking half way through the thread

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 22:18

If Netanyahu had to call out every anti semitic act or statement that goes on, he wouldn't have much time left to run the country. Anti semitism is a pretty permanent hum in the west.

And there's this:
www.pri.org/stories/2016-10-24/why-american-evangelicals-are-huge-base-support-israel
“Supporting Israel is not a political issue ... it is a bible issue,” pastor John Hagee, the founder and national chairman of Christians United for Israel, said in a speech last year"

Again, you can imagine how Tel Aviv hipsters and many ordinary secular Israelis feel about this.

HashiAsLarry · 18/08/2017 23:06

As it's late Friday and I love a bit of Matt Forde, here's his take on Nick Clegg's book. Seems to touch lightly on a lot of what we've discussed here.

guardian linkie

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 23:46

woman I still think of Israel as a Labour country, as my opinions of it were formed over the years when Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan were dominant.
When UK teens on the left aspired to work on a Kibbutz, as a rite of passage

I keep thinking of Likud as the loony upstarts and that Israel will revert to what it used to be.
But it won't, will it. The Israel I admired is lost in time
Somehow the fascists won and they've got their fingers around the throats of Jewish and Arab citizens alike

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 23:48

More late Friday fun, reminding us again why Brexit Means Titanic:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svwslRDTyzU

bathildabagshot1 · 18/08/2017 23:55

Just a question, has anyone read Britania Unchained by Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Chris Skidmore and Elizabeth Truss?

Those ardent patriotic brexiteers. Here's what they think of the British people: "he British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music"

Get the flags out Brexiteers, this is who you voted for.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2017 23:59

The True Face of Donald Trump

U.S. President Donald Trump is a racist and a hate preacher.
It's time to stop trivializing the immense damage he is causing.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/after-charlottesville-donald-trump-reveals-his-true-face-a-1163466.html

When the president of the United States says that the victim is just as responsible as the murderer, or that the counterdemonstrator is just as guilty as the Nazi waving the swastika flag and shouting, "Jews will not replace us," and when Trump's own party doesn't drop him even now,

then Duke and Trump have already achieved a key goal.

Tolerance, empathy, kindness and diversity of opinion are all disparaged as political correctness.
It becomes OK to say anything else, and if you can say it, it becomes easier to justify violence.
The wheel of civilization has made a turn in reverse.

HashiAsLarry · 19/08/2017 00:02

bigchoc 😂

bath I haven't, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

HashiAsLarry · 19/08/2017 00:03

Massive cross post. The 😂was to the video Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 19/08/2017 00:11

Bath The real Brexit leaders barely bother to disguise their contempt for ordinary - i.e. not superwealthy - British people.

And their intention to take away many hard-earned rights in employment, consumer protection, the environment, the right to sue the government ....

bathildabagshot1 · 19/08/2017 00:15

BigChoc, its what I find so hilarious about the brexiteers appeals to patriotism.

They've sold their country out.

mathanxiety · 19/08/2017 05:42

A few Onion articles in celebration of the departure of Steve Bannon.
www.theonion.com/articleslideshow/onion-remembers-steve-bannon-trumps-most-encrusted-56697
'The Onion Remembers Steve Bannon, Trump’s Most Encrusted Advisor'

And Tina Fey does sheetcake:
www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tina-fey-sheet-caking_us_599675d0e4b0e8cc855cce85?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

mathanxiety · 19/08/2017 06:18

On the topic of education and access to it, and cutbacks, university funding, etc..
Annandale: There is quite a lot of philanthropy in the UK but it is not built in in the same way as in the USA where as you say the assumption is that low taxes are good because they allow for really serious charity giving and volunteering. I profoundly disagree with the philosophy but must admit I really admire the can-do, everyone get stuck in attitude that goes along with it/results from it. It's like baby showers; US version = charming all female gathering to express emotional and practical support for an expectant mother. UK=crap commercialised tat-fest resented by all. USA conservative= likes low taxes and understands the trade off is that they pay an absolute minimum of 10-15% of take home income plus significant personal time to create local and individualised safety net for the community. UK conservative=likes low taxes and as a result expects to send children to private school and pay subscription to blood sports associations.

Americans apart from the Mitt Romney variety do not pay taxes in the 10-15% range. 90% of those Americans who pay income tax pay significantly more. Income tax is payable to the federal government and also to the state you live in. Then you also pay county taxes on all your purchases including food, formula, diapers, children's shoes, etc. and municipal consumer taxes too. On top of that, you pay municipal real estate taxes based on the taxable valuation of your home, plus local water, sewer and garbage collection charges. Despite this, Americans donate to charity, and they also donate to universities. Corporations also donate to charities and to universities, as do millionaires, billionaires, etc.

Volunteering and giving to charity are not Republican values - this is an all-American thing, very much part of the culture.

The tax code allows for deductions of donations. I can even deduct goods I donate to my local second hand shop as long as I can find approximate market values for each item (online guides exist) and keep my tax receipt that the shop conveniently gives out.

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/21/jonathan-wolff-uk-universities-dont-benefit-from-large-endowments
I think I posted this before. It is an article on university endowments, comparing the US and UK. The US wins hands down.

I constantly get phone calls from the US universities my DCs attend and attended, asking if I will participate in the annual fundraising. Heck, I get notices from exH's private all-boys' school in another city asking for my contribution. My DCs' RC elementary school ran a fundraising operation that would put most UK universities to shame - hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised annually. Very recently, my Irish university caught up with me and asked for my money.

The net result of those endowments is that students can be admitted on a need-blind basis, and retained. DD1's university charged about $60,000 annually for tuition + room and board. 95% of that was waived by the university thanks to family finances while she was in university. She got a Stafford Loan (govt guaranteed) and Pell Grant (a direct grant of money from the government) and got a part time job that kept her in spending money (she fully supported herself from age 18 on) and allowed her to repay her loan before she graduated. DS went to the flagship state school free. It also has a huge endowment plus support built into the state budget. DD2 went to a private university and had the same sort of financial aid that DD1 got.

In the US, your student loans come due 6 months after graduation, with a few possibilities of deferment, but there is no threshold of income under which you do not have to make payments on your debt.

The result of donations to the elementary school was free or greatly reduced tuition for some families.