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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 17/08/2017 18:49

What I took from the election was that the main appetite was for anything but the Tory party.

Very much my impression too and as you say to protect welfare systems and the NHS. After all, some of the Brexit vote was for the NHS - despite the Brexiteers assuring us that they personally weren't fooled by the £350 million a week promise.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/08/2017 19:00

I would be interested to know if any of the anti Brexit Labour voters on here are now coming round to the Brexit policy in the way that Owen Jones has?

I personally voted Remain and I'm hoping Labour are just playing a long game and waiting for at least some of the toxicity of being anti brexit to die down, I've personally no appetite for a Labour to head toward the centre ground or for a centrist party

Probably not an opinion anyone wanted, sorry Smile

Tanith · 17/08/2017 19:07

I can't understand why some people feel the need for another Centrist party. They already tried it in the 80s and it ended as a dismal failure.

I believe the SDP still exist somewhere. I'm not sure what their EU stance is, but why don't the Centrists simply join them?

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 19:23

I would be interested to know if any of the anti Brexit Labour voters on here are now coming round to the Brexit policy in the way that Owen Jones has?

I have said on these threads before that I have never been an Owen Jones fan. He tends to play at being the bestest leftest and is a bit of a slime ball in my view.

I actually voted lib dem for tactical reasons, but am very much left labour at heart (my entire family is very much to the left). I am also strongly remain. It is difficult as I support Corbyn's policies on pretty much everything except Brexit and most certainly have not changed my remain stance, in fact it has become stronger and stronger as this shit show has progressed.

I would like to hope that labour can turn ship, and they have left themselves the scope to do so by being so vague, but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with them. I had hoped for better from Starmer at least, even though I am of the opinion that Corbyn really doesn't care either way.

Would I vote labour now (if I was going with my heart rather than tactically)? At the moment I don't see any of the other parties giving me what I want either, and a new party formed of centerists certainly isn't going to. If I didn't vote labour it would be solely because of brexit and I don't know if I can put all my other principles aside to vote solely on the anti-brexit ticket. It would depend a lot on manifestos and Brexit stance at the time from labour and other parties.

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 19:25

I believe the SDP still exist somewhere. I'm not sure what their EU stance is, but why don't the Centrists simply join them?

But then they wouldn't have all the fun of choosing new logo and deciding what colour their rosettes are going to be.

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 19:35

^Actually this looks like a disaster, we’re worried about it’.”
Asked why, the peer said: “You get vilified, you get threatened^

From red's article.

What might be more useful than a new party is free personal protection/security and life insurance for public figures who do speak out against brexit.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/08/2017 19:36

If I didn't vote labour it would be solely because of brexit and I don't know if I can put all my other principles aside to vote solely on the anti-brexit ticket.

Well said BB

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 19:48

When you operate a first past the post system, groups always end up disenfranchised. When the two main parties are pulling to political extremes, it leaves a massive hole in the centre ground. But just as the last GE especially showed, some people can't get over labels. For a centrist party to gain ground now, they are going to have to be a new brand free from tarnish as a whole preferably with some fresh blood.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 19:58

Left wing isn't extreme though. Thatcher very cleverly changed the political discourse in this country, whereby anything remotely socialist was considered toxic. Only now has Corbyn manged to reclaim the real Labour party which is why calls for a centrist Labour party (read Blair, neo liberalism) pisses me off.

I agree with Justanother, Labour need to play the long game, let the tories become consumed with Brexit. Then Labour can pick up the pieces. Sadly as a remainer Brexit will either happen or fizzle out. The damage is already done.

TheElementsSong · 17/08/2017 20:17

free personal protection/security and life insurance for public figures who do speak out against brexit.

It says something very ugly about Brexit Britain's sociopolitical climate, doesn't it?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/08/2017 20:52

(paywall) European Institution halt funding for British technology firms

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/europe-halts-funding-for-british-technology-firms-6l8zncrlj

British start-up technology companies are being denied access to their single largest source of investment funding as European institutions begin to cut the UK out of future projects.

Venture capital funds say they have been told that the European Investment Fund (EIF) has now effectively turned off the tap to new British commitments.

Before the vote to leave the EU last year the fund indirectly invested more than half a billion pounds a year in Britain’s technology sector, its largest single source of money.
The EIF channels money into venture capital companies that combine it with private sources of funding to invest in the fast-growing but risky tech sector.

Companies are now warning the government that unless it steps in to make up the shortfall, they will move elsewhere in Europe and take jobs with them.

< bungs to Sunderland ? Nissan, to the Mini, to farmers, now the tech sector .....
building new customs infrastructure, multi billion giant IT projects ....
building umpteen agencies from scratch .....
Expensive business, this Brexshitting >

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 20:53

Left wing isn't extreme though. Thatcher very cleverly changed the political discourse in this country, whereby anything remotely socialist was considered toxic. Only now has Corbyn manged to reclaim the real Labour party which is why calls for a centrist Labour party (read Blair, neo liberalism) pisses me off.

Absolutely agree with this. I don't see Corbyn's policies as particularly far left at all. It is just we have slid so far to the right anything vaguely to the left of centre seems extreme. Both my parents and most of my extended family left the labour party once Blair got into power and have rejoined for Corbyn. They saw Blair and his New Labour lot as highjacking the party, pushing it to the right away from the membership. They see Corbyn and the membership who voted him in as having reclaimed it again for the left.

Mistigri · 17/08/2017 21:47

Bigly that's because a lot of Corbyn's policies really, genuinely aren't very leftwing at all. There was an analysis of the impact of Con, Lab and LD policies on the different income groups, and the the LD's manifesto promises were more redistributive than Labour's. And free uni tuition (regardless of its merits in other respects) is still a great big bung to the middle class.

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 21:50

Tsipris has managed to hang on in in Greece by at least trying to bring in some socialist policies to dissipate the Grexiteers and extreme right. If labour does have a plan, I'm hoping it includes this.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 17/08/2017 22:12

... and then you can find an analysis of the impact on the various manifestos on poverty, in which Labour came out on top: ukpovertyaudit.org

Bloody experts will tell you anything.

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 22:12

It makes a refreshing change on my twitter feed to not see angry brexiteers but angry corbinistas instead I have to say. As someone put it all the anger towards the centre is like saying damn those non-extremists Grin

And where do the extreme lib dems go now? Forgotten again it seems,

Mistigri · 17/08/2017 22:25

and then you can find an analysis of the impact on the various manifestos on poverty, in which Labour came out on top: ukpovertyaudit.org

Yes, i agree that it's possible to interpret the impact on policy in different ways. But the fact remains that on many issues there is little clear blue water between a supposedly centrist party, and a supposedly left-wing one. And some of the headline labour policies (like the big bung to middle class students) are not redistributive at all - quite the opposite.

I agree with quite a few Labour policies btw, but there is more than just brexit that I disagree with.

Tanith · 18/08/2017 00:09

"I believe the SDP still exist somewhere. I'm not sure what their EU stance is, but why don't the Centrists simply join them?

But then they wouldn't have all the fun of choosing new logo and deciding what colour their rosettes are going to be."

Grin And choosing their leader, of course: "We'll use 'David' from your name and 'Owen' from mine" Grin

That's probably why they haven't formed their party yet - still squabbling over who's going to be Chief!

I looked up the SDP and, unfortunately, they seem to be Eurosceptic. Back to the drawing board...

Mistigri · 18/08/2017 05:53

I believe the SDP still exist somewhere

Dissolved decades ago, some years after the merger to form the LDs. The current day SDP is a different party.

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 07:18

Peregrina trouble in your manor?

Looks like yet another case when the judiciary are ruling on iniquitous social policy.

Funny old constitutional muddle when it's come to this:

www.thecanary.co/2017/08/17/chaos-court-david-camerons-former-tory-council-accused-breaking-law-video/

There were chaotic scenes on Thursday 17 August as Oxfordshire County Council, the borough in which David Cameron’s former constituency sits, appeared in a central London court. It was there to defend itself in a case which is a legal first. And the case the Tory-run authority had to answer? That its austerity-driven cuts to vital services may have broken the law.

The Court of Appeal was hearing the case of Luke Davey. In November, a judge granted the 40-year-old from Oxfordshire a judicial review against the council, following a 42% cut to the amount he received to pay for his care and support. This is because Davey has quadriplegic cerebral palsy, is registered blind, and requires assistance with all of his intimate personal care needs.

TheElementsSong · 18/08/2017 07:30

British start-up technology companies are being denied access to their single largest source of investment funding as European institutions begin to cut the UK out of future projects.

Let me predict some responses.

🔹All these elitist Remoaners care about is funding! They all have their snouts in the trough!

🔹We can just magic some create equivalent funding from our burgeoning Brexit economy!

And my personal favourite for brevity and familiarity:

🔹Punishment! Bullying!

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 08:21

Sorry, a long post:

It says something very ugly about Brexit Britain's sociopolitical climate

Our jester in residence Chapman has gone silent. Wife has taken the phone/ or something else.

The low ratings of press freedom in britain speak volumes, as are our literacy rates, exacerbated by closing libraries. Interesting to see on holiday how few british people are reading actual books. Books left behind in apartments and restaurants for others to read were invariably German or Scandinavian, and written by much better writers than the trash a lot of british read, if they read anything at all.

And that tech investment stat is worrisome, and not surprising.

Labour should be all over this, now. (as Bigly referred to earlier) Constantly, wall to wall: 24 hours a day, local protests, immigration centre and home office protests, businesses losing jobs due to brexit protest, EURATOM protests, anti brexit racism protests, bbc bias protests, death threats to remainers protests, assassination enquiry protest (how many arrests of armed fascist terrorists have taken place since Cox's murder?), food price increase protests etc.

I can't imagine any of the above happening in Germany (mass deportation of students, the home office policies, fascist murder of politician, tolerance of EDL marches, etc). Most of these socio/political/economic phenomena would be prohibited by law and constitutional checks, as in any civilised EU country.

Fascist/ nazi flavoured regimes turn opposition into dissidents so it subverts the role of constitutional opposition parties.

Socialist worker dogma is not very useful when this situation requires nimble footwork , but the SWP are a gift to the bannonesque brexiteers.

Political parties are not geared up to be protest groups, but the election result certainly was a protest. (as was the ref).

I suspect there are reasons why labour are not speaking out, and they may or may not be linked to Chapper's silence. His posts, as well as being very scurrilous ( although not so extreme compared to the president of america's twitter posts and what the thomas mair types in britain post) there were some pretty worrisome intimations about who was telling him to desist by the end. Sad

Labour's impotence: cock up or conspiracy, I'm sure it's a bit of both, but definitely 'not a good thing'.

Finding a spine, right about now, would be nice

Remain Labour, and the failure of the panoply of Remain pressure groups, the Liberal party, Green party to unite and fight just looks weak.

The march in September will be huge, but apartheid required a plethora of opposition strategies to dismantle, so does this.

In these times weakness enables.

BiglyBadgers · 18/08/2017 08:29

And free uni tuition (regardless of its merits in other respects) is still a great big bung to the middle class.

This arguement annoys me as it could easily be used for anything free at the point of delivery. Take universal free healthcare, clearly a bung to the middle classes right? Hmm

If university education was free at the point of delivery education would be free to everyone and the middle classes would not gain more free education than anyone else. Means tested maintenance grants would go someway to mitigating the increased wealth of the middle classes giving them advantages during the course.

Peregrina · 18/08/2017 08:36

I believe the SDP still exist somewhere

It's the Liberal party which still exists.

I didn't know about the case against Oxfordshire CC. I feel a certain sympathy with councils, because the cuts are the result of Central Government policies, but they have passed the buck to them.

woman12345 · 18/08/2017 08:37

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/uk-universities-places-applicants-courses-numbers-a-level-results-ucas-a7897886.html

UK universities scramble to fill places as number of applicants taking courses falls

The rising cost of tuition fees and increasing student dissatisfaction levels are said to be contributing factors to the decline in students who have already applied to go on to higher education.

Despite growing concerns over a generation of students set to be saddled with an average of at least £50,000 of debt, the Government has stood by its plans to increase interest rates for student loan repayments – which will rise to 6.1 per cent in the Autumn.

Analysis by the Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS) predicts that three quarters of undergraduates will never fully pay off their student debts.

Think Nick Timothy has been lurking, he used our term 'Ponzi' scheme. Grin