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Brexit

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A Brexiters chat with a German on a Portuguese beach.

266 replies

themueslicamel · 09/08/2017 14:05

Just got back from Portugal and when there was on s beach where I left my shoes on s rock, s nice German chap brought them over and asked me where I was from (London) and how I voted in the referendum.

I was honest and told him I backed leave and we had an interesting conversation.

I told him my reasons for doings so, pro Europe, anti EU and confirmed I was for immigration, just having controls over who we let in and in what number.

I said we should and will take our share of refugees however I did not like the way the EU was going with the EU army on the horizon and feels we should look to trading freely with the rest of the world too.

He said many Germans feel let down as they need us as an economic powerhouse to pay in and we should close the borders with Africa and send all of the migrants back.

Some of his views seemed to be along the lines of what is often thrown against brexiters, and I appreciate it was a lone view but closing borders and sending people back seemed at least to him to be the way forward.

Not sure where I am going with this, just thought it may be of interest on this forum and provide an alternate (albeit limited) prospective.

OP posts:
themueslicamel · 10/08/2017 18:21

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abilockhart · 10/08/2017 18:28

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abilockhart · 10/08/2017 18:32

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themueslicamel · 10/08/2017 18:36

Personal insults?

Really?

People on the internet are real you know, just not needed.........

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abilockhart · 10/08/2017 18:45

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missmoon · 10/08/2017 18:48

"MissMoon That reminds me that I should have included the creative industries and advanced engineering and technology in the list of sectors that give the UK competitive advantage"

Ron yes, and also architecture, which I hear has been badly affected by Brexit (many top staff are EU citizens).

themueslicamel · 10/08/2017 18:59

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twofingerstoEverything · 10/08/2017 19:11

How are YOU pretending Brexit is still a good idea?

FlissMumsnet · 10/08/2017 19:22

Evening All,

We do understand it's a provocative topic but can we ask everyone to post within our Talk Guidelines so we don't end up with a thread that's holey as old cheese.

As you were.......

abilockhart · 10/08/2017 19:31

FlissMumsnet

Insults from all sides should be treated in the same manner.

PickingOakum · 10/08/2017 20:32

As for your STEM point and life experiences being preferable on your academics, I would strongly recommend you enter British Academia some day.

Valentine2 I was an academic in an RG university for over ten years Grin. In my experience, there is now a significant schism between theory and actual practice in many disciplines. We are pumping out engineering grads that can't actually design something you can viably manufacture for purpose, for example, which is why engineering firms up and down the country are begging retired engineers and draughtsmen to come back to work. Our business and engineering postgraduate schools are now mostly international students who return home after their studies, and whose research and learning focus is on manufacturing and export in their own countries.

But how much of our economy is manufacturing and export based?

You would be surprised. Exports make up about 28% of our GDP. We are the world's seventh largest industrial nation with 2.54% of the share of world manufacturing output (Italy has 2.7% and France 2.46% with Germany at 6.7%: the big hitters are Japan, China and the US), and manufacturing makes up 45% of UK exports. The key areas are aerospace, automotive, chems and pharma, construction, defence, electronics, energy, food and drink (which is currently a strong performer), plastics, security, steel, telecoms, and textiles/clothing. We are also world leaders in bank note production and sub-sea base engineering.

And all that is before we look at the non-manufacturing products we export across the world: music, films, computer games, books, TV (no country exports more TV formats than the UK; the industry is worth about £1.25bn a year).

Again, more than 63% of British SMEs export with exporting revenues contributing 59% of their total revenues. 63% of exporting SMEs export outside of Europe with 38% exporting to the US.

It is an enormous area of economic activity. And just who is asking people in these exporting industries that actually make and sell things to other countries what they think about Brexit? After all, they are the people that are currently doing it and are going to have to face the outcome of any Brexit deals.

Whatwouldyoudo Picking I agree that Valentine has overemphasised the role of academics by not including trade associations, trade unions and business leaders, as well as the representatives of the organisations that run our public services etc. in the list of people that should be involved in a complex decision like Brexit.

Again, this is ignoring the reality on the ground. Why would you ask trade unions and representatives of public service organisations to be involved in discussions about trade and the EU? What international trade does a union engage in? What commercial product or activity does it export?

Why ask these people their thoughts over a delegation of SMEs owners that actually sell to the EU or the wider world?

It strikes me that there is a very distinct perspective here about British economic activity that has quite probably been fed by years of the narrative that Britain has no industry and no manufacturing anymore. That is just simply not true. We are not a country that is solely made up of a lumpen proletariat, an academic, media and political elite, and a sandwich filling of public service workers in-between.

The whole Brexit debate has been driven by concerns over immigration, British labour shortages, and political ideology. This is like trying to assess a cake by constantly fixating over the colour of the icing when the real matter, the sponge underneath, is about trade and capital within or outside of a single market and the regulations imposed therein.

Soci · 10/08/2017 20:42

I think that all eu countries have large support for and against eu. It's never going to be a simple unified opinion in any country.

Valentine2 · 10/08/2017 21:17

Please everyone. I was as angry as anyone that Refrendum didn't go my way. But if we start mud slinging and effectively stop talking due to this, there are big disasters waiting to happen.

picking
You wrote
"Exports make up about 28% of our GDP. We are the world's seventh largest industrial nation with 2.54% of the share of world manufacturing output (Italy has 2.7% and France 2.46% with Germany at 6.7%: the big hitters are Japan, China and the US), and manufacturing makes up 45% of UK exports. The key areas are aerospace, automotive, chems and pharma, construction, defence, electronics, energy, food and drink (which is currently a strong performer), plastics, security, steel, telecoms, and textiles/clothing. We are also world leaders in bank note production and sub-sea base engineering."

Kindly provide reference for that "28%" of GDP being exports plus all the subdivisions.
I am posting this reference from the Office of National Statistics. Take a look at the image I am attaching of the figure. Where did you get that 28% from? And all the rest too. Post a link please.

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/secondestimateofgdp/quarter1jantomar2017#what-are-the-main-contributors-from-the-output-income-and-expenditure-approaches-to-gdp-growth

Not only we are a service Industry, we are quite vulnerable to things like recessions as they directly hit us as a consequence.

Please produce a reference for those figures.

A Brexiters chat with a German on a Portuguese beach.
Valentine2 · 10/08/2017 21:25

I can understand your point about the international students taking a lot back with them but that surely actually means we should open borders further rather than close them?
I have posted the link elsewhere but posting here too. My field is life sciences and people are terribly frustrated at Brexit around me.
Here is a tech industry overview that shows how overwhelmingly the tech industry looks disappointed with what Is happening:

hired.com/blog/highlights/brexit-impact-on-uk-talent-pool/

As financial sector (78.8% GDP contributor according to office of national stats link above) is already Brexit planning (means moving large chunks of operations and money abroad, 100s of billions literally), I just don't see your few billions will make much of a difference EVEN if e manage to keep all of this going IF all that you posed it right CONSIDERING you even got the most basic figure (GDP) wrong.

mummmy2017 · 10/08/2017 22:45

I do think the views expressed by the academics do have merit, and as we sat counting the votes that night, I was so sure we would lose. as I watched the trays load up for the first hour it was too close to call.
We counted the votes didn't look at them and just checked each box was correct.
Then we sorted yes and no a 100 at a time. still it seems half and half.
Then we started to sort yes in one pile and no in another, checking numbers again, 1000's at a time, and slowly the leave boxes edge a head, more and more, till we had a whole tray 10.000 ahead.
You could hear a pin drop in the end.
I went to sleep that night still not sure as we had known it would be leave where I live, OMG was my thoughts on seeing the news the next morning.
If the Remain had promoted all the good things they now are so passionate about do you think it would have change the Result?

themueslicamel · 10/08/2017 23:08

I stayed up all night transfixed.

Couldn't believe it had happened and it went the way I wanted.

A memorable day.

SmileWineCakeGin

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Valentine2 · 10/08/2017 23:16

I think I learnt one very big lesson that night: that I live in a bubble and an echo chamber and that there is this very large section of our society which is facing hardships that I never thought of and that we need to start talking now. I was angry and frustrated in the beginning but now I see it differently. I think dialogue is the only solution out of it.
I can say it categorically that it was a shocker for a large number of people I know. it prompted people to look beyond their own circles, Leave or Remain.,

ShoesHaveSouls · 10/08/2017 23:18

I'd wait and see the end result of brexit before you get too gloaty, OP.

Cheers Wine - DH & I are drinking some EU plonk tonight. Let's hope it's not 20% more expensive in 2019.

ShoesHaveSouls · 10/08/2017 23:25

On a more serious (or, really, not so serious note), Charlie Brooker sums up my experience of the EU Referendum perfectly - right down to going to bed thinking remain have got it, then waking up the next day WTF?! Grin

ShoesHaveSouls · 10/08/2017 23:31

Sorry, didn't realise it had a thumbnail of lovely Jo Cox on it, when I posted. It showed Charlie Brooker when i viewed it on YT.

mummmy2017 · 10/08/2017 23:38

The bit about calling up to say his TV was wrong, must echo how a lot felt.

themueslicamel · 10/08/2017 23:39

Shoes,

There's always wine from Australasia, South America, Africa and North America to buy instead.

I am sure they are keen to sell it to us!

😇

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ShoesHaveSouls · 10/08/2017 23:49

I drink a lot of wine from Australasia and America. I drink a lot of wine Wink

But I don't want my European Prosecco to go up by 20% in price - and that goes for my food bills too. 50% of our food is imported from the EU at the moment. Shall we ship more of that in from Australia too? Great idea Hmm

mummmy2017 · 10/08/2017 23:51

We could use a plane, one of the ones with refrigeration, you know like they do already.

ShoesHaveSouls · 10/08/2017 23:53

Yes more planes - that's exactly what the planet needs. More planes shipping food further distances.

Obviously, that's a solution with no drawbacks.