A Brexiters chat with a German on a Portuguese beach.

[themueslicamel]

Just got back from Portugal and when there was on s beach where I left my shoes on s rock, s nice German chap brought them over and asked me where I was from (London) and how I voted in the referendum.

I was honest and told him I backed leave and we had an interesting conversation.

I told him my reasons for doings so, pro Europe, anti EU and confirmed I was for immigration, just having controls over who we let in and in what number.

I said we should and will take our share of refugees however I did not like the way the EU was going with the EU army on the horizon and feels we should look to trading freely with the rest of the world too.

He said many Germans feel let down as they need us as an economic powerhouse to pay in and we should close the borders with Africa and send all of the migrants back.

Some of his views seemed to be along the lines of what is often thrown against brexiters, and I appreciate it was a lone view but closing borders and sending people back seemed at least to him to be the way forward.

Not sure where I am going with this, just thought it may be of interest on this forum and provide an alternate (albeit limited) prospective.

Mother

This is rubbish - cover up anti EU rhetoric with comments like 'well they could be from anywhere'

Another silly thread started for no other reason than to goad remainers.

*
Goady and silly?!?!

Where?

Seriously, where?

Then don't participate.*

It's because Remainers insist on calling them thick/racist/uneducated.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......................................

some mechanism to weed out those who seek to exploit us
Yes there is a handy democratic mechanism called general elections. You are free to vote out the Conservative party next time. Or did you mean something else?

This is not goady

I suppose these comments have galvanised my reason for starting the thread, I am all to aware that those who voted leave are not very popular on this topic, however I wanted to come away from the tub thumping name calling and look at the views from inside the EU member states citizens.

themueslicamel Just got the record, I live and work in a multicultural office in the city and have a senior position in a financial firm with matching qualifications to go with my thick racist uneducated tiresome opinion. Now that that makes me wonder if you actually do since you seem to be trying to imply it is oxymoron. I do too and as such know that many go back on the train to Essex and North Kent and are the backbone of UKIP worshipping their erstwhile pickled city worker Nige.......

"and look at the views from inside the EU member states citizens."
hahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahaha.

Sorry OP but your really do sound funny. You spoke to a semi naked German tourist on the beach was he fit? and think you are "looking at the views from inside the EU member states citizens"?

Hahahahahaha this thread was really quite amusing.

Muesli. I see. Brexiteers always seem to shrink from facts and evidence and instead insist on blind faith in their own prejudices. If you make an assertion, it's not unreasonable to ask you to substantiate it.

There is simply no sign that Brexit is going to do anything other than make Britain a poorer, meaner, more insular place. There was an interesting article in the German press a while ago on how Britain may need Brexit as it has never faced up to the reality of a lost Empire and so is unable to participate in any sharing of sovereignty. America became independent because England refused to give the colonies representation at Westminster. Britain seems to find it much harder than other countries to cooperate on an equal footing. Maybe national humiliation is what is needed?

My DB travels extensively for work. He has been to 10 EU countries since Brexit and he tells me that the vast majority of people he has met on his travels have told him that they think we're completely insane.
He's one of the many scientists leaving the U.K as a result of Brexit.

Ok, you all win, I give up.

I just wanted la light hearted chat after a random conversation with a random German, that didn't descend into the usual thread on brexit

Interesting, no one answered my question on the future of EU either.

Have a lovely day everyone.

MC

I hope long term we can be a bastion of education, democracy and tolerance trading globally outside of the EU.
I have to think hard if I ever suggested roc any student/visiting scientist from outside EU to come to UK even before Brexit. Just the living expenses were prohibitive and it was cruel to give such a suggestion when amazing labs and facilities are strewn throughout EU and you can live there easily on small sums of money too.
Now, post Brexit, I am nearly sure that if it all goes through me and my family will leave UK. I have no idea how your hope will stop our family bleeding money and my husband's job. The prospects for me are already affected and will go downhill from here. I can post more but might put me as I am sure some colleagues are on here.

Interesting, no one answered my question on the future of EU either.

I think a large trading bloc which can grow its own food and has huge manufacturing capacities is going to survive no matter what.

OK. I will answer questions on the EU. I was very happy with the current level of EU integration and with the UK's veto on further integration.

I love the ECJ and consider it's protection vital in a country with no written constitution where any law - no matter how unreasonable or cruel - can be implemented with a single Act of Parliament. Trump's muslim travel ban could be legal here post EU if it was voted for, even though it's considered unconstitutional in the US.

Single currency isn't right for the U.K. yet, so we have an opt-out but I have no emotional attachment to pounds.

The EU army stuff is all a bit meh. Why does it differ from NATO forces or the UN?

Ultimately, I can't get het-up on all this sovereignty stuff as I identified as an EU citizen and always felt proud of being part of it. It's not some colonial empire like when Britain ruled India by force.

First we had the Barmy Arms for lighthearted Brexit related chitchat, now we have the Barmy beach......

It is too complicated an issue to discuss on beaches. It should have been discussed in our world leading universities (who voted Remain unanimously:Cambridge, Warwick, London....) and and in Parliament. Not to be decided by public who has no idea of the complications, no qualifications to discuss the ins and out (if googling could count, we would all have PHD degrees in various disciplines, many people will have multiple PhD and postdocs too). parliament is where it should have taken place. Not in streets and pubs.

Like purits, I too find this a bizarre statement. It is indicative of a failure to recognise the nature of business, trade and economic activity in Britain.

Who do you think engages in a bulk of business, trans-national trade, manufacturing, design and technology and production in this country? Who do you think navigates EU regulations over their economic activity on a daily basis? Who do you think sells and buys from the EU and the wider world?

Let me tell you, it isn't academics at world-leading universities, unless they have used their research to form spin-off private enterprises (which really only occurs in STEM disciplines). All academics know is what their research tells them: research that harvests data from all those people who do engage in such activity ~ people you would refer to as "the public".

If you honestly think that a Cambridge academic knows more about the impact of EU regulations upon manufacturing than someone who runs an engineering business that sells product to both Germany and the Gulf, then I really don't know what to say.

And the notion that parliament is somehow more fitting venue for discussion is naive as well. We have a major problem in this country in that huge swathes of current MPs have no real life experience of business, industry or trade, let alone transnational trade. Most of them cannot even quote the current BoP or the main exporting industries in Britain. In the last general election, I had the choice between a candidate who had worked in a British trade union all his working life and a former retail manager: how would either of them have an in-depth and secure grasp on vagaries of transnational trade agreements?

I think it has suited vested interests to make positions on Brexit all about immigration and racial issues. It has created a meta-narrative that completely excludes issues of trade within the EU and external to the EU, commercial trade regulations, globalisation, and transnational criminal enterprise.

Let me tell you, it isn't academics at world-leading universities, unless they have used their research to form spin-off private enterprises (which really only occurs in STEM disciplines).
ALL businesses need STEM people because all businessses need maths and statistics to grow bigger (not the small businesses I agree). But how much of our economy is manufacturing and export based? We "export" financial services mainly. That sector is going to be damamged beyond repair if not already.
As for your STEM point and life experiences being preferable on your academics, I would strongly recommend you enter British Academia some day. We have some of the best business schools in the world (Warwick, LSE), forming business growth and support institutions all the time that work with actual businesses (the Cambridge and numerous other universities' Big Data institutes), life sciences and pharma industries (science parks around our big universities that incubate new spin offs based on new research and support existing businesses: example a big pharmacy moving to Cambridge instead of going to Boston to get the support they needed, moved from north to Cambridge)..
even the article 50 itself was written by an academic. You have to read thorough scientific research works in
thousands if not more to make one thing backed by all That evidence. So am acaeic sitting in their room is reading about your work, the work of your rival and the work of all your rivals around the world too. You got time for that? When the big retail industries of this country go on to fund Bid Data centres in our universities, they might be thinking something? What do you reckon they pay tens of millions for o these academics?

I have no idea how to say something on your point about MPs not being capable and then Leave giving the same MPs the decision to leave EU based on absolutely no plams. Why didn't you ask them to come up with a detailed plan to Leave BEFORE we voted Leave? would you do that with your own business? You would act first and plan later?the world works on "90% plan and 10% execution of it" and succeeds. We have done the reverse. We were angry on why MPs were so stupidly ignorant and academics were somewhat shielded. So we took the matters in our own hands because we are what exactly?
We actually haven't taken matters in our own hands. We have given this to MPs who, in your own words, are not competent enough.
We even had to hire a trade negotiator from New Zealand because? We don't have any? Or We don't have any who think brexit would work? Either way, these incompetent MPs are the ones deciding it all now and Leave are responsible for it.

That was big Pharma, not pharmacy. 😂

Picking I agree that Valentine has overemphasised the role of academics by not including trade associations, trade unions and business leaders, as well as the representatives of the organisations that run our public services etc. in the list of people that should be involved in a complex decision like Brexit. However I think the basic point is valid. In a democracy we appoint representatives with the power, time and resources to consult with experts and stakeholders from all the sectors of society that are affected by policy on the complexity of the issues before arriving at an informed decision through the democratic process. Of course many of the issues may overlap between different sectors of the economy / society and that is certainly true of global trade where Science, Education and the Knowledge economy, and the Services sectors are the main sources of Competitive advantage. Actually as someone who went back to university to study a culture so I could be more effective marketing services there I would argue there is already a lot of connection between business and academics but more would not go amiss.

it isn't academics at world-leading universities, unless they have used their research to form spin-off private enterprises (which really only occurs in STEM disciplines)

I just want to point out that this is nonsense, there are lots of spinoffs in the arts and social sciences too (real estate consultancies, macroeconomics consultancies, artists running a practice, etc.).

"I just wanted la light hearted chat after a random conversation with a random German, that didn't descend into the usual thread on brexit"

Then you should have kept it lighthearted and told us about his stomach and colour of his badehose rather than claiming you had obtained some special insight into the minds of our lovely EU neighbours with a sample of 1. .

MissMoon That reminds me that I should have included the creative industries and advanced engineering and technology in the list of sectors that give the UK competitive advantage, not sure where Picking thinks all those creative skills are nurtured

However it is of course not about trade, and the fact that our sources of competitive advantage in global markets will be damaged irreparably with no plan to invest in developing new ones, all that economic damage is going to be worth it when we "take back control" and regain or sovereignty. That must be why May and her Brexiteers are not listening to business leaders.......

I guess every country has a Nigel...

Then you should have kept it lighthearted and told us about his stomach and colour of his badehose rather than claiming you had obtained some special insight into the minds of our lovely EU neighbours with a sample of 1. .

Erm, sorry, never claimed any "insight "

Just said after speaking to a German Bloke (& his wife and adult daughter but never mentioned that in the beginning) it just got me thinking.

it just got me thinking

"He said many Germans feel let down as they need us as an economic powerhouse to pay in and we should close the borders with Africa and send all of the migrants back."

"Some of his views seemed to be along the lines of what is often thrown against brexiters, and I appreciate it was a lone view but closing borders and sending people back seemed at least to him to be the way forward."

^^ that got you thinking?

As an aside and apart from this tourist's ignorant and uneducated views his English must have been brilliant, one of the advantages of growing up in a country that is outwards looking and values languages... or did you in actual fact converse with him in German OP? Now THAT would be impressive .

It got me thinking that there were many different and conflicting views across the member states.

I have a smattering of German and French, why is that impressive?!?