The Brexit Arms. All welcome.

[surferjet]

So.....how are we all?

to prove your point, as I'm sure you know, would involve checking my previous posts to see if they follow your suggested pattern. I'm sure you are aware that one incident does not prove a pattern.

I don't need to check your previous posts, I read them at the time

Without fail you always resort to the 'I'm not responding because everyone says all Leavers are thick/ racist/ stupid/ or Renainers are superior/ dismissiv' etc.

If this is really such a great idea, surely you've thought of at least one benefit that outweighs the ratshit our economy is turning to?

If you haven't, why do you still think it's such a fantastic move?

I always think that wrong is one of the more considered posters on here.

Randomly, from your commission link. (What in earth is a "reflective" statement supposed to be? Utter whitewash words)

Opening statement based on a 'poll'. "Europeans expect a Union that defends and protects them"

No they dont. Europeans expect the four freedoms of workers, goods, services and capital.

Europeans have never been asked if they want the EU to defend them nationally.

NATO has ensured peace in europe for over 60 years, and its utter madness to follow France and Germanys anti-americanism down this route of an 'alternative' military option. Madness. But clearly, the EU wish to take military action regarding 'internal policing' that would breach NATOs very clear guidelines.

The fact remainers now appear to support this, simply because 'if the EU say so, then they must be right', and ' if leavers dont want it, I definately do!' , is just utterly off the wall.

"I'm still pissed off that "a vote for Remain was a vote for an EU army"."

You can be as pissed off as you like. Its true. Calling it, 'shared resources' is as ridiculous as producing 'reflective' statements.

What do you believe these 'shared resources' under a single HQ and commanded from Brussels without any required reference to all member states, are intended to do?

Well it's pretty obvious what a reflection statement is, whether you think the term is ridiculous or not.

And no, shared resources and research and increased co-operation is not an EU army, so I will refer you to Arkell v Pressdram on that one.

Leavers complain of an EU army but say very little about arms deals with Saudi and the Tories cutting funding to British armed forces.

I used to enjoy a drink in the Brexit Arms( under another name) with like minded Leavers but stopped posting because of the constant put downs by the likes of Bear.
I am still glad I voted leave.
And so glad we won't be part of the EU Army.

And I have no problem with Saudi arms deals or the cuts to the armed forces. But that has nothing to do with an EU army

Of course you don't. Brexit is a cult, it is a religion, dogma. The EU represents everything bad, arms deals with Saudi and chlorinated chicken represent the glorious liberation.

I think you'v just about summed it up there, Ghost.

How you've built the EU into the root of all evil is completely beyond me.

And given there have never been any examples of this evil quoted, that actually outweigh the known consequences of leaving, it's pretty clear there are none significant enough to justify this direction other than for Leaver to say 'we told them to shove it'

Remainers come across as cultish too you know - in well over a year I've not seen a single one budge an inch on there 'EU good' 'Leaving bad' mentality.

That's just online however, RL is a bit different. But it's just something we all have to accept, no one is going to back down, no one is going to admit they're wrong ( because they genuinely don't think they are ) so it just goes around in endless circles.
Pointless really because we are leaving the EU, nothing is going to stop it.

Maybe if you could give us some examples of why 'EU good, Leaving bad' is actually wrong then we might have budged.

There are countless examples of why Leaving is going to be very difficult and problematic (not least at the fact that we are about half way between the vote and the end of A50 and have agreed sod all so far) with no end gain in sight (other than the badge of leaving) yet nothing is ever offered as a counter to these issues.

I agree no one is going to admit they're wrong but I genuinely don't understand how Leavers can convince themselves this is the right thing to do without giving examples of why.

All the twisting arguments and saying they don't need to answer to Remainers etc, doesn't convince anyone that they really do have robust reasons.

I've 'budged' a great deal over the year. I have come to understand that Leave voters are fundamentally unpatriotic. There is no other explanation for their adherence to an ideology that has already had such a detrimental effect on the country, They would rather watch the country crash and burn than admit they were wrong. They clearly feel the same way about their country as they do about their own families

Brexit 'progress'...

Cultish Surferjet?! Theyre positively head in the sand deniers of reality, prefering some apocalyptic fantasy. Getting a remainer to stick to factual reality is utterly impossible as Random has just demonstrated with her sharing and caring eu reflections on defence. (Or Ghost doing what Ghost does best, lost that one so lets throw in Saudi arms deals..)

Bear, weve shown you over and over again why the remainer predictions of doom and destruction not only havent come to fruition (when predicted they would immediately after the referendum) but why they wont after 2019.

UK Unemployment continues to fall month on month since the referendum result.

Manufacturing orders hit a 30 year high.
UK retail sales up 3% from last year.
Exports up 10%
ING and Deutschebank have increased their operations in London since the vote.
WellsFargo have set up a new 300million European HQ in London since the vote.
Robert Walters have seen a 13% increase in recruitment in the financial sector in the last year (read this and weep Bear)
https://www.robertwalters.co.uk/hiring/hiring-advice/city-jobs-index/july-2015-city-jobs-index.html

UK Stocks are still the best game in town
“There’s nothing whatsoever in the so-called Brexit uncertainty that would deter me from investing in the stock market. Look at the dividend yield on the FTSE, it’s about 4%. In a low interest-rate world that’s a fairly decent return” said Michael Hewson, chief market analyst at CMC Markets. "

Yet remainers bury their heads. They point to the fall in sterling, whilst ignoring the fact that 12 months ago it was still significantly overvalued and the IMF were pushing for a further devaluation of up to 20%
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/27/pound-remains-overvalued-despite-last-months-sharp-fall-imf-warn/

They ignore the dire youth unemployment stats in the EU. They ignore the trillions pumped into the EU in QE. They ignore the utter disregard for their own laws by refinancing Italys dire situation. They ignore Macron, the blue eyed boy and saviour of the EU project,losing his Head of Army and plummeting in popularity. They ignore estonias e-residency scheme. They ignore the Visegrad group. They ignore NGOs shipping migrants into europe. They ignore that a UK citizen has the 3rd highest personal wealth (not including property) in the EU. They ignore the fact the EU are attempting to sell us access to a 'market' that is about to shrink by a substantial amount on Brexit. They ignore reports of expanding eu financial operations equating to handfulls of staff understandably relocating, instead prefering 'the City of London is closing down!' rhetoric. They ignore the CEO of Barclays who persistantly has explained why no jobs will be lost due to Brexit. They ignore the fact the Richard Bransons Virgin Health, is an EU supported tax havened corporation now supplying services to the NHS for a hefty fee, rather than paying the said tax that would have provided these services in the first place. They ignore the fact that of the 12% of NHS staff who are from overseas, only 5% are from the EU. (The other 7% non-eu and 88% UK are irrelevancies to a remainer). They ignore that any bun fight on customs tariffs, would be negated by a 0.25% reduction in corporation tax. They ignore VAT. Over and over again they ignore the trade deficit. They ignore that we're not in Schengen and indeed the only difference a UK citizen has experienced in the last 20 years to european travel, has been a tunnel. They ignore that George Osbourne as editor of the Standard, attended this years Bilderburg Group, whereas our current chancellor did not. They ignore that TTIP will be back on the EU table in the autumn.
They ignore Apple's CEO Tim Cook saying, 'We are very optimistic about the UK's future, and we are all in.' Inventor Dyson said, 'We will create more wealth and more jobs by being outside the EU'. Jaguar sales director Andy Goss said they 'are committed to ensuring manufacturing remains the backbone of the British economy'. Canada's trade minister said, 'We are already on track to have the UK and Canada have an even closer foundation for our trade relationship'. The CEO of Norway's oil fund said, 'We will continue to be a significant investor in the UK'. Barclays CEO Jes Staley said the UK 'will continue to be the financial lungs'. CEO of a £70.7 billion pension fund, Bourbonnais said, '...London is and will remain the financial centre of Europe.' UK General Electric's CEO said Britain was 'a good place to do business'. Anthony Bamford wrote, 'I believe that JCB and the UK can prosper just as much outside the EU'.

All this (and Im sure pages more) they ignore.

But worse of all, they ignore the 40 billion approved last month for the EU Defence force.

This was the remains position less than 2 years ago. "An EU army could only work with a common budget, common institutions, and a supranational defence authority that could over-rule decisions by national parliaments. That is unimaginable to even the staunchest supporter of EU integration."

Common budget. Tick.
Common institutions. (MPCC supported by PESCO) Tick.
Supranational defence authority? Come back in 3 months, lets see where we are in 3 months.

If ever I was pleased I voted leave, its today. Cheers

Wow.

Now now, Elements, we're all heading to the sunny uplands, obviously.

My pleasure.
What have I missed? Regulatory bodies remainers are so fond of throwing around? Leaving the EU, doesnt impact ISO and IEC. Full stop. You then look at CEN and CENELEC (which are EU specific) but our representation on these boards will not be affected by not being in the EU, not being a member of EEA or EFTA or ETSI. Thats because the BSIs rules of membership are not reliant on the UKs EU membership. They are utterly separate. As are our memberships on most regulatory bodies. Add to that that the vast majority of CEN and CENELEC standards are lifted from the WTO ones and tweeked slightly, (and various EU states have legislated that these are then 'voluntary only'....like France) nothing changes, whether we're in or out.

Oh I missed this little snippet of 'good news' too...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/10/canadian-pension-fund-bats-brexit-worries-city-expansion/

Its nice having a 'where are we' revisit. Chin Chin.

Can I just recommend Twitter to those who fancy a change from the MN referendum world? I have found it a breath of fresh air.

Otherwise known as an echo chamber

the trouble with that mammouth list caroline is it doesn't cover how leaving the EU is going to benefit us.

You can rant about the issues in the EU all you like, no one ever said it was perfect, this problem is it was and still appears to be preferable to the alternative.

Not least because, with only a matter of months to go before we are supposed to leave, nothing has been decided.

The quotes you listed include 'I believe' or 'we are very optimistic'- funnily enough, I'm not putting much faith in those.

Oh yeah.

Bamford, who was fined €40 million by the EU for unlawful practices and who has shifted production to Brazil, India and China due to falling EU sales.

Dyson, calling for the government to subsidise farmers at CAP levels and who was the biggest UK recipient of EU basic payments in 2016.

Tim Cook will no doubt like the UK, given that Apple doesn't like paying tax and the UK already has low corporation tax and this will likely go lower.

Barclays - busy expanding the Dublin office to become the EU hub.

GE's healthcare CEO warning May not to inhibit the movement of workers from the EU.

JLR CEO Ralf Speth warning that a hard Brexit would be damaging and would have to "see the facts" before deciding whether to continue manufacturing in the UK. Note that the new E-Pace will be built in China and Austria.

Easy to sit on the fence, make encouraging noises, watch the negotiations and quietly make contingency plans.

Remainers do not see the EU as perfect they see that the benefits of membership outweigh the negatives. As a pp highlighted leavers will list links of anti eu newspaper articles all day and night but offer nothing of balance. Reminds me of those religious preachers you get in town centres. They shout very loud but must people ignore and walk on by.

If you're going to leave the biggest and most prosperous economic trading block in the world you'd better have a bloody good plan. Like religious cults they can rant but when challenged on the foundations and substance of their bold proclamations they offer nothing.

I'm a remainer and my opinions have definiely evolved, from doom and gloom to (since the last budget) a reasonable degree of confidence that brexit isn't going to happen.

The negotiations are a sham - if leaving the EU was going to happen anytime in the next 5 years, let alone in 2019, the government would be spending money on the new infrastructure required; it would be tendering for the set-up of the new regulatory bodies required and running recruitment ads; it would have IT consultants working on new customs software; it would be moving earth and buying up land for new customs and storage facilities at Dover and Felixstowe and Holyhead. None of this is happening, none of it is even included in the budget; none of this is even talked about.

Conclusion: brexit ain't happening (unless a small group of hardline Tories really can drive us off a cliff to certain death - and I am inclined to think that parliament and public opinion will stop them. Most people no longer care about brexit. It's a short step from not caring to conveniently forgetting that you ever voted to leave.)