The Brexit Arms. All welcome.

[surferjet]

So.....how are we all?

Mummy, you should really try to learn the difference between Causation and Correlation

EU demand members spend more on Defence... Woops own goal there on the Remain side.

Mummy you mentioned benefits and council housing in the UK not other countries. You cannot distinguish the actions of a sovereign government and the actions of the EU.

Uh huh - ask a brexiteer a question and you get:

• I don't have to tell you anything!!

• something completely incoherent

• a 'hilarious picture'

Good times.

Once again I'm talking about domestic spending.

I see you dodged my question about benefits mummy.

EU demand members spend more on Defence...

Trump was demanding that European members of NATO spend more on defence. It was your poster boy Juncker that was pushing back.

So am I , if we don't have to fund the EU, then there will be ways to reallocate monies to places more in need rather than were we are told it has to be spent.
If we take back all these agency's in the UK, we will need to employ more people to run them, which means more jobs, at the big boss level and down wards, which filters down the line.
Much as you can't see it due to the Billions of people who now have moved to the UK, we will have to build more housing, as the tent thing won't work here.
The Political Parties know the issues that will encourage the electorate to vote their way, and once we conclude Brexit do you really think that there won't be a rush to pin these issues to the flag post.

But I can say During our time as a member Benefits have been abused, and that this as well as other factors have meant benefits have been cut.
Paying 120k to house someone in a London house who doesn't work and can't find a job, when even if they don't like it they could have moved to a cheaper area where maybe they could have got a job.
Meaning with no benefits on offer the person would have moved themselves as people once had to find a job.

Yep, the Tories have ways been good at reallocating money to ordinary people.

Agencies and companies/banks are moving out of London and into mainland Europe.

Nursing applications are down. There will be a skills shortage.

Houses will still be unaffordable. Happy times.

If you can't find a job in London then you won't find one on another area with less opportunities. What does this have to do with the EU?

But you can move to a cheaper area and find a different job so you can feed your family.

Don't the EU have a Agency on this, they seem to have on every bloom things else. They certainly have rules about being able to claim a Benefit in this country, increasing our out goings.

Relocating costs money and is difficult. It also breaks up support networks.

Biggest chunk of social security bill is spent on pensions so benefit bashing is nice little diversion tactic.

"Perhaps if I could understand what me and my DC's have to look forward to after the ten/twenty years of pain that would be helpful."

Histy, I read something ...somewhere...in the last year (sorry no idea where) that looked at the reasons the remain campaign failed. Part of it was the strategies they were using. One main strategy was that all think tanks, highly paid strategists from various countries who'd turned up to help on the campaign, were absolutely adamant that the general public would never vote for a 'economic jumping off a cliff scenario' and that (apart from playing down the immigration issues) raising the whole 'unknown' fear, would see them to certain victory. That was where project fear was born.

It was a fundamental error of huge proportions. Threatening what MAY happen, the ifs, the coulds, the maybes, the unknown, and then telling a nation the 'unknowns' are far more frightening so you best stay where you are, is a shockingly poor political tactic. As they then found out.

If the remain camp had more to present in hard evidence, they would have done, but then, as today, they still rely on 'ifs', 'coulds', 'unknowns'. Either you bought into Project Fear or you didnt, as that was the intention. Are you frightened of the unknown or are you not? You should be, said the remain campaign, the leave campaign said fuck right off with that rubbish.

The problem with regurgitating all this rhetoric from the campaigns, as Vince Cable is desperately doing, is it didnt have substance then, and it doesnt have substance now. As Owen Jones pointed out in howabouts piece earlier this week, the bottom third on the wages ladder has seen year after year of decline, whilst the top third have gone from strength to strength. We tell London that a HGV driver in the north can only earn £10/hr today, whereas 20 years ago he was earning £30/hr. Either they dont believe us, or they tell us well 'weve' never been so rich! The UK has never been so prosperous, so youre mad! No theyre not. Theyre earning £10/hr when they used to earn £30.

When you say, thats not the EUs fault, they look at the Polish, Romanian drivers sitting next to them in the agency office (nice guys but thats not the point) providing the permanent and cheap flow of labour thats seen their own wages plummet. When you throw out stats and data, about how positive EU FOM has been on the economy, they look at their own economy, where it simply isnt true.

Youre jumping on some '20 years of pain' statement. I dont agree with that in the slightest. The City doesnt agree with that in the slightest. What is going to take 20 years to resolve? Its project fear alive and well.

Nice way to Pretend that don't count, or and anything to do with the EU.

Tory austerity and tabloid benefit bashing have nothing to do with the EU. Very simple.

Caroline, Brexit is based on Ifs and buts. That is no way to run a country. No wonder there is trepidation.

"but it's very odd to assume they will automatically be more accountable as an outcome of Brexit."

And that is fundamentally what Brexit is. The fact the governing classes are running round like headless chickens saying, dear lord, the people want us to govern, we havent had to do that for decades, is the whole point.

Theyre being asked, by the nation, to do something hard, and its not going down very well

Yes they do, we are housing feeding clothing EU members from other countries who moved here because of EU FOM, we are not talking about 1 or 2 people but Millions.
We have to pay CB to children who have never lived here, the people who can to work here KNEW the EU gave them the rights to do this, as it is so much more than they get in their own country.
When we tried to stop this we were told no.
Who BY the EU and the ECJ because this applies to us because we are members of the EU.
Otherwise people would have returned to their own countries, they like it here, they like our lifestyle, and rules.
We have prisoners we want to send home to their own countries and can't, so we have to pay for these people.
Can we stop this no why now, oh the EU says so.
They are things not of the EU making but apply because of the EU.

Running round like a headless chicken is not governing.

They are running round like headless chickens because Brexit is unworkable.

"Caroline, Brexit is based on Ifs and buts. That is no way to run a country. No wonder there is trepidation."

Ill agree with that. Its still not a good enough excuse to join the 'do nothing' camp, when the 'do nothing' camp only promise more of the same? I thought both sides had agreed controlled migration was the only way forward? Didnt DC go to brussels with a song in his heart and the nations support to secure a FOM break?

We can keep regurgitating these Ghost, but yes, I agree, there are those who fear change, far more than the actual effects of what that change may be.

As i have said before if you are going to leave the biggest and most prosperous economic trading block in the world you better have a good reason and good plan. There is no plan and no reason. 10 months to strike new trade deals.

I would not sell my house without securing somewhere else to live.

So you will hide in your house, and look out the window while over the hill you could find something better, but you will never know while you hide in your house.

Bit of perspective on London as the engine of the economy. I often compare it to Scotland because when I lived there in the early 90s the populations and demographics were much more similar (5.5m Scotland and 6.5m London). Over that time Scotland's population has remained unchanged but London has grown to over 8m. Over 1m of that growth is EU nationals.

London spends slightly less per head on benefits than Scotland. The main reason for this is that it has roughly half as many pensioners and disabled people per head as Scotland. In terms of working age population spending per head is far higher in London. Housing benefit per head is roughly twice the level for Scotland and children eligible for free school meals, as a proxy for family poverty levels, is roughly 40% in London schools.

Part of the reforms to the banking industry involve the split of retail and investment banking. All of the major banks are taking the opportunity to relocate retail operations away from London - there was an article last week talking about Birmingham. In comparison numbers of jobs going to Europe are tiny and again they are more likely to be focused at the retail end.

Bit of a thought dump open for debate.

That's because you are vehemently against Brexit Bear, your feelings are so entrenched that nothing will convince you.

surfer I'm vehemently against Brexit because absolutely nothing has been offered as a benefit worth the hardship that even Leavers now agree we will encounter.