The Brexit Arms. All welcome.

[surferjet]

So.....how are we all?

"Not sure why we are coming back to sovereignty and choice.. We are a sovereign state "

Not true. Whilst the EU legality question of Corbyns desire to nationalise the railways could go on for several pages, there are various and many sections of EU law that would have to be either amended, circumvented or ignored, for him to achieve it. Thats absolutely agreed by all sides on the EU nationalisation argument. Similarly, if we wished to rip up workers rights, we would have to break EU laws to do so. My point is, whilst everyone gets hung up on debating EU article this that or the other, or, 'well workers rights are great why would you do that?!', whilst were in the EU we dont have sovereignty to freely choose either option.

We dont have the right to decide if we wish to rip up workers rights. Thats the fundamental point of sovereignty, not whether its a good idea or not.

The second common remain argument, which you too have used, is well the EU parliament is voted for by us anyway, so weve got a 'say' anyway. That could be partly true, if the EU Commision took policy, treaty, and regulation decisions to the Parliament. They dont. The EU Commission has and continues to make legal changes without seeking authority from the EU Parliament.

I keep coming back to the bail out clause, but the very mechanism they used, which was refusing member states a vote, to enable them to disregard their own previously ratified treaties, was breath taking. They have done this on hundreds of occasions, across telecomms, tv and radio, energy, privacy and communications, the list is huge.

My quip about Israel was serious, in that the EU will now only let you compete in the Eurovision song contest, if you are a member of their EBU. For argument, lets say Fine.

But call it the EU song contest and also be transparent about all other EU legislation thats required to compete in it. Also lets be transparent that this now isnt a geographic based event, its a political one.

Call me a simple soul, but I thought it was a song contest......for europeans.

History will judge Bear. Who am I? A mere MN poster whos view you asked for.

Lets have a singalong! Its a song. Its uplifting. Enjoy it for what it is

Call me a simple soul

Simple? From the horses mouth and all that

The Brexit white paper states that sovereignty was never lost, it just felt that way. Brexit is a "feeling" you see, devoid of critical thinking.

History will judge Brexit as a con job of epic proportions.

LOL, that wasnt the english version!! (makes note to defo stop posting links)

English. Sorry youre not feeling uplifted guys, try this and this

OR and this isn't such a big shock.
Yet again UK comes to the rescue of France against the Take over of EU by it's biggest contributor Germany....

You do know the people who have broken EU law the most are Germany.
Who start this migrant trouble, oh yes Germany.
Who have been the worst at keeping up the rule about exporting Germany.

Who has the power in the EU.….........

Third time lucky huh?

Did you not read they also want to make Germany the spoke language.

Id certainly agree theres a huge risk that the eurozone is 'reliant' on Germany (aka, holding EU states to ransom on debt). Money is indeed power BMW.

Not so sure about the language thing mummy, but theres certainly been questions as to what language to use re the defence force, and I know the EU Commission only use English, French and German. Be interesting if they drop English....

But have a beer, its saturday night and the clock keeps ticking

Money is indeed power, at least we can agree on that. The thing is,we are going to hand that power to the US, or anyone at all who will do trade with us, because we now have to. It was always significant that one of the first things Treeza rushed off to do, was to try and schmooooze arms deals with Qataris and Saudis. We are now literally beholden to money anywhere.

The irony is that we were doing well before, and weren't so beholden to other nations.

I can understand that some people believe that we will be better off now as before we were ruled by some distant, powerful forrin EU machine.However the facts just do not substantiate the belief that we gave up sovereignty to the EU. I said this up thread,but it was then misinterpreted.

We will now sacrifice far greater control over some areas such as food and the NHS to the influence of American or other corporations and nations, as money is indeed power.

By contrast to have assessed the EU properly you needed to look at the actual topics or areas which were delegated, and those areas which just weren't.

All of the time we kept 100% control of the most important rules and regulations :Health policy. Education. Fiscal policy. Pensions. Public expenditure. Monetary policy. Income tax. Corporation tax. Capital gains tax. Inheritance tax. Border control and security. Non-EU immigration. Pensions. Welfare. Foreign policy decisions. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. Property law and succession of estates.

We made a pragmatic decision to share some joint law making power over matters requiring decent standards such as Agriculture, environment, food and some basic workers' rights. This was in return for open access to a $16.6 trillion annual market and co operative post war peace.It was a decision that paid off- strengthening the UK’s economic position to a phenomenal extent. We also gained joint choices over what happened in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands etc over their agriculture, workers' rights etc. (which we have now given up.)

So the generalised 'sovereignty' justification for what we have done, was just profoundly incorrect, once you look at the detail. However the threat to us now that we are economically vulnerable, is far, far greater.

(But hey ho, you won, I lost. I need to get over, it I know.)

"All of the time we kept 100% control of the most important rules and regulations :Health policy. Education. Fiscal policy. Pensions. Public expenditure. Monetary policy. Income tax. Corporation tax. Capital gains tax. Inheritance tax. Border control and security. Non-EU immigration. Pensions. Welfare. Foreign policy decisions. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. Property law and succession of estates. "

You are so wrong lonelyplanet. Everything youve quoted 'allegedly' applied prior to the Lisbon Treaty, though in truth, it didnt. The ECJ ruled hundreds of times in these areas prior to Lisbon, and whilst Im tempted to list the hundreds of cases brought before the ECJ, it becomes a moot point post Lisbon 2007.

(Heres a couple of key ones, pre Lisbon, to put your mind at rest. In 2000, the ECJ ruled against Wolverhampton NHS in the case of Shirley Preston and others, regards pensions. The Marks and Spencer Case 2005. "The Court reiterates, first of all, that although direct taxation is within the competence of the Member States, the latter must exercise that competence with respect for Community law. In 2006, the ECJ overruled our then Home Secretary Charles Clarke, who had banned the entry of a French National known to be involved in terrorism. And so on and so on)

The Lisbon Treaty of 2007 however, formally gave the ECJ sweeping new powers not just over commercial disputes but over defence, foreign affairs, immigration, justice and home affairs. From everything from media and press regulation, to what we can teach in our schools.

In 2011, the ECJ ruled on the case of an Afghanistan asylum seeker, finding against the UK. More recently, David Davies used the Lisbon Treaty and the ECJ, to overturn the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 (known as the Snoopers Charter). Ireland currently, has been hauled in front of the ECJ regards its tax arrangements with Apple. (Though neither Ireland nor Apple applied to the ECJ).

The Lisbon Treaty, legally changed everything in all the areas you quote, giving the ECJ the ultimate juristriction.

Your points about trade deals just arent correct either. We have no other trade deals, with any other nations in the world, where part of those deals demand citizens of either country must be allowed entry and residence.

Can you imagine the US being told, we'll only trade with you if you allow our citizens to come and live there?! No other trade deals with any other nations in the world demands, citizenship, legal jurisdiction over national laws, and cooperation on defence. None. They are trade deals.

What you then go on to conflate, is the whole 'globalist' argument. This I agree with you in part. The TTIP is a screaming example of corporations seeking to legalise influence in national governments. What you then shouldnt confuse however, is the EUs desperate desire for TTIP, with a UK/US trade deal. They are fundamentally hugely different.

The UK cannot 'trade' any area of its national sovereignty in a commercial agreement, whereas the EU can. That is the crux of the EU.

"These are the types of deals that could affect people living in Spain as the U.K. "

Yes youre right whoseafraid. I think its a very valid point about the possibility of state pensions being frozen for UK pensioners living in the EU. Didnt the Canadians do away with their immigration 'retirement' scheme, so Id guess she retired over there some time ago? Im also not sure if the pension changes were impacted by Canadas changes, or UK changes. I really dont know.

But I think you are absolutely right, that UK state pensions currently paid overseas, may be affected. The mutterings are that both sides want to maintain 'existing rights', but until the bun fight is had, I dont think any of us can guess.

My points on France however, are very specific to France, French law, and French rights to welfare, healthcare etc. In short, even with FOM, its nigh on impossible to live in France on a basic UK state pension only.

I really dont know anything about Spain. Perhaps there are some spanish residents on here living in Spain on UK state pensions only who could answer. Can you move to Spain and claim welfare for examole? If so, is that 'welfare' UK paid or Spain paid? I really dont know.

I can only assume at this stage, that 'existing rights' that may or may not be agreed, differ between which EU state you currently reside in.

LOL. Just been looking at possible benefits abroad re the Spain question and this popped up from the Disability Law Service.

"If there is a conflict between EC law and UK social security law, EC law will override UK law. " Did I miss UK welfare and benefits payments coming under the ECJ earlier?

Sovereignty indeed. Good grief

Lovely picture of PH and Liam's matching dimples [unicorns]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40914604

Lonely probably not the best time to bring up our "control" of Dutch and Belgium agriculture via the EU - eggs n all.

I actually have a friend brought up in UK now emigrated to Canada as a dual national. You really can't just turn up there willy nilly with nothing other than a UK State pension - almost as ridiculous a suggestion as the US doctor and the NHS thinking it would be fine for his DC, adopted or otherwise, to stay in the UK on a tourist Visa.

My Canadian friend's DM did "retire" to Spain but has always kept a base in the UK and continued to use the NHS. Now she is in her late 80s, rather than her 60s, she has returned to the UK. My impression is that this is the more typical approach of the average UK pensioner in the EU.

On pensions there is an argument not to uprate them. UK pensioners in the EU benefited disproportionately for most of the last 10 years because UK pensions were uprated even beyond UK growth figures (which were in excess of EU) and also the depressed Euro, which has now corrected (albeit there probably imo is an overshoot atm).

Entire family being melodramatic twats about Brexit

A FAMILY has decided to treat the referendum result as an overwrought personal drama.

The Sheridan family from Nottingham is making the most of the dramatic potential of the crisis, in a thinly-veiled attempt to milk some attention out of it.

Mum Donna said: “I just keep watching the news and crying. It’s like a nuclear war except without any fatalities.

“Then my husband said ‘Don’t worry, I’m going to get us through this!’, like Kevin Costner in a PG-rated disaster movie. Except Kevin Costner wouldn’t have voted Leave.

“My husband’s name was Pete but now it’s Judas.”

13-year-old son Martin said: ““I had an argument with dad, but it fizzled out because the football came on and I was texting a friend anyway. This is how it must have been in the English Civil War.”

His younger brother Robert said: “Leaving the EU means there’s no future for the younger generation, so I’ll probably move to a thriving economy like China where they need people with HNDs in performing arts.

“That’s if a British Nazi party hasn’t taken over and put me in a camp for being a member of the Lego Club.”

The daily mash summing it up perfectly again 🤣

For balance, and also in the Daily Mash, you can take its "How are you pretending Brexit is still a good idea?" quiz:

HOW well are you convincing yourself that Brexit is the greatest moment in British history? Take our test and find out.

I can post the rest if you like - but it is a bit exaggerated and I wouldn't want to offend anyone (well, not too much)

Meanwhile here's a real story...

Brexit: UK retirees rushing to settle in Europe, say financial advisers

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/13/brexit-uk-retirees-rushing-to-settle-in-europe-say-financial-advisers

Lol surfer

This always tickles me...and well worth another airing.......

How did they lose after this!!!!

Congrats to GB&NI Relay teams this weekend by the way.

Storming runs after a disappointing week.

Carolines- I thought everyone is welcome in the Brexit arms, and yet you are trying to crush what I am saying. I am trying to speak the truth to the power base in here.

It is completely true that the matters we choose to share with the EU is only stuff like Environment, food,agriculture. The large areas like Health,Education, fiscal policy, Pensions etc are entirely down to our government of the day..

Let's take it topic by topic and assess the extent of any control ? Taking the huge areas of Education first....Ive listed a selection of both large and small items to do with education.

Please either^ tell me in what way the EU controlled the government's decisions concerning education^; or^ admit that our own go'vt had complete sovereignty over education.^

Examples

🔹The Academies Act 2010 allowing schools to become academies . A huge change - how was the EU behind this please, or did we have autonomy?
🔹The Education Act 2011 changing many areas of educational policy, including the manner in which newly trained teachers are supervised, the regulation of qualifications, the provision of post-16 education, and student finance for higher education- how was the EU behind this please, or did we have autonomy?
🔹The abolition of the General Teaching council, the Qualifications and curriculum development agency,and other bodies- - how was the EU behind this please, or did we have autonomy?
🔹The whole grammar school debacle. In what way was this attributable to the EU or did our go'vt have complete control.

🔹This year my DD as part of the Year 4 curriculum had to learn to add and subtract numbers with up to 4 digits using the formal written methods of columnar addition and subtraction where appropriate, recall multiplication and division facts for multiplication tables up to 12 × 12. Down to the EU ? Or controlled 100% by our government?

If it is your position that the Tory party do not have control over all this, please also explain how as EU members, we have controlled the education provided in France, Germany, Spain etc.

Been glued to the athletics for the last week and a half. I celebrate all the 4ths and 5ths and last places as well. I even think Clyde the Thistle from Glasgow 2014 has a rival in Hero.

I count 16 relay medals plus Mo's individuals. KJT'll get them next time.

If the EU has no impact on UK education policy why does academia care whether we Remain or Leave? Interesting thread last night on how easy it is /isn't to relocate from the UK to Berlin under FoM. Germany applies the rules differently to us. It can do this because its domestic system is very different. Changing to their approach would have been a different way of countering the pull factors of FoM to the UK but would have altered our whole social policy and been a retrograde step in terms of equality of access. DC's renegotiation was very little but also a step too far.

"Carolines- I thought everyone is welcome in the Brexit arms, and yet you are trying to crush what I am saying. I am trying to speak the truth to the power base in here.

It is completely true that the matters we choose to share with the EU is only stuff like Environment, food,agriculture. The large areas like Health,Education, fiscal policy, Pensions etc are entirely down to our government of the day..

Let's take it topic by topic and assess the extent of any control ? Taking the huge areas of Education first....Ive listed a selection of both large and small items to do with education.

Please either tell me in what way the EU controlled the government's decisions concerning education; or admit that our own go'vt had complete sovereignty over education.^"

Firstly lonelyplanet, you are wrong and Ive provided plenty of information to show you why you are wrong and why your statements are not true. You are not "speaking the truth".

I cant magic up some make believe for you, to make you right (try the Westminsters thread, they believe anything without checking anything), so complaining that Im "crushing what youre saying", like some oppressed victim, is wholly inappropriate. What your saying is simply not true. Not some 'opinion' (which you'd be utterly entitled to hold) but your persistant assertion that what you are saying is 'fact'.

Its not 'fact', and its not 'true', however crushing that enlightenment is to you.

But lets do education. Heres the ECs policy on schools. Read it.

ec.europa.eu/education/policy/school_en

Now lets look at how they do this,
"The Commission works closely with national policymakers to help them develop their school education policies and systems"

EC governance of education falls under various bodies. The Commision started out with 'Integrated Guidelines' and the 'Community Lisbon Programme' (CLP) they then implemented a further governance body the 'Open Method of Co-ordination' (OMC). The OMC sets guidelines and timetables, establishes quantitative and qualitative indicators and benchmarks, as well as periodic monitoring, evaluation and peer review.
Currently, they are working under a further strategic framework in their Education 2020 programme.

ec.europa.eu/education/policy/strategic-framework/expert-groups_en

All of this Lonelyplanet, was legalised under the Lisbon Treaty. What you are attempting to conflate, is that no EU civil servant formally sits on any schools governors board. Correct. Our Government can indeed decide spending, budgets and curriculums etc . Correct.

BUT, they must all act within the overarching guidelines of the EU.

We can implement as many acts of parliament as we like regards education, as long as they are within the EUs guidelines. That is the point you persistantly choose to disregard.

That is sovereignty in education, and it is ultimately with the EU, not the UK.

Oh FFS. Can I just say, I didnt underline anything! The first link has an underscore between school and en. Thats then caused a blip in the link and underlined the entire next para!!! (now I understand why other posters have been ridiculed for excessive underlining!!! Apols all.

The second link also has an underscore before the last 'en'.