The Brexit Arms. All welcome.

[surferjet]

So.....how are we all?

carolinesbeanies

Of course people retain their political viewpoints, but having voted for the UK to leave the EU, why then move to an EU country? I get that people having been moving abroad and so on for hundreds of years as you said, but if hypothetically you'd voted leave, then why would you not stay in the U.K to be a part of Brexit?
Just because France is going 'that way', it doesn't explain it, they haven't had a referendum and they aren't leaving the EU.

Deadsouls, there was something on, I think, the BBC recently, where they were interviewing a lot of expats in Spain. Most had realised where they were and voted Remain, but some had voted Brexit and were suddenly surprised to find their pensions worth less, worried about reciprocal healthcare etc., and some had already had to move back to dear old Blightly.

There are idiots everywhere.

Ha ha! How are you pretending Brexit is still a good idea?

What do you think will happen to those wishing to live abroad after brexit? That UK citizens are banned from the continent?

I can't believe that. Do you really think that after Brexit UK citizens will really be able to just up sticks and move to the continent as they can now? Our own government are absolutely determined to end FOM for us.

carolinesbeanies

Also it's not a given that have private medical insurance. In France you are reimbursed for 75% of healthcare costs, and have private instance for the remainder. As a member state, at the moment British citizens can take advantage of this system.

Also I thought one of the points of Brexit (as presented by the leave campaign) was to restrict freedom of movement. Is that not what leavers want re: migration, so it's not a given that those in the UK wishing to migrate to mainland Europe will be able to do so with as much ease.

I think youll find that really wasnt.

Are you seriously telling me that ordinary Brits who had worked in factories or low-paid clerical work have been retiring to warmer (European) climes for centuries? The type of people who for the past 30 years or so have been able to manage this? I would dearly love to see your evidence for this because I think it's bullshit.

I dont know any private pension or workplace pension holder whose got their pension 'pot' stashed under the mattress in cash twofingers.

Duh. The exchange rate... Down 13% approx since the referendum. What are you going on about cash under the mattress for? I don't know about you, but my pension will be paid in £, which - if I lived in mainland Europe - would have to be converted to Euros before i could spend it.

Typos again -sorry

At the age you quoted the couple may have bought a house cheap and sold it for 10 times the amount, this would have given them enough to live in France and have money to live on, along with a pension.

"I don't see the government guaranteeing funding at those levels continuing after 2020?"

Random, why not? The 2020 date applies to the next GE, are you suggesting a future Labour government will pull the funding?

Next GE is scheduled for May 2022, so that leaves a hole in the Tory funding scheme. By 2020 there will so be many demands on limited government funds who knows what the universities will be given. Or the farmers. Or deprived areas that would have benefitted from EU structure funds.

.Gosh, a flurry of activity. Shall we myth bust.

I didnt say "going that way" I said there are plenty of like minded French citizens.

I was asked specifically deadsouls about your retired couple. France has very clear guidelines that already apply, to those wishing to live there. As with your 'retired' couple, anyone not working have stringent criterias to meet, under the current FOM.

Anyone not working, (unemployed or retired) but moving to France, (as our couple have done) are not automatically entitled to French state healthcare. Prior to 2014, early retirees could have applied for an S1 which would have covered them for basic care for a short period of time, (in short, allowed them to use the EHIC for a short period but longer than a 'tourist' visit) but since 2014 the S1 for early retirees has been withdrawn.
They could apply to CPAM (French health office) for basic CMU Couverture Maladie Universelle , and this does indeed become a right after 5 years of legal and continuous residence in France. However, under the 5 years, they will have no automatical entitlement to anything.
French healthcare is not 'free' at the point of use and works on a 'reclaim' basis. The UK will only cover some very basic healthcare services under EHIC, (certainly not your sweeping 75% figure across all healthcare, hence the requirement to take out private cover when visiting) but this doesnt apply to our retired couple anyway.

France will not cover this, as no state contributions have been made. EU citizen or not.

Personal contributions are expected and French citizens, use private schemes to top up their basic state entitlement. Our 'retired' couple, are treated the same, and as they have no basic entitlement, they must have private health cover. This applies now, just as it would in 2019.

Secondly, our 'retired' couple are not unemployed, they are early retired. Whilst welfare MAY be available for those under FOM who find themselves unemployed in France, it only applies to those who moved there to work under said FOM, and is awarded in limited cases. But again, this doesnt apply to our retired couple. They didnt move to work.
One of the biggest mistakes remainers make is that all EU states operate like the UK. ( cause theyre in the EU, innit). They dont.
There is a very clear message from France and their welfare system, which is, even under the FOM, dont come to France unemployed.

Because of this, our couple have to be financially self supporting.
Thats the bottom line. And in simplistic terms, (cause we lose the will to live having to explain the basics to remainers) if youre financially self sufficient, you can live there.

Unless the French decide theyre going to treat UK citizens as some completely different alien from another planet, (which is what the remainers are braying for, but is an utterly ridiculous suggestion), then our couple have to meet exactly the same criteria they have to meet now. Financial self sufficiency and private health cover.

Just as a side note, US citizens who live in France, are able to draw their US pensions in France, I cant see any reason whatsoever, why UK citizens wont be allowed the same post Brexit.

"I get that people having been moving abroad and so on for hundreds of years as you said, but if hypothetically you'd voted leave, then why would you not stay in the U.K to be a part of Brexit? "

Because theyre retiring having paid into the UK for 40 plus years, possibly employed x number of staff for that period, are living off their own money, and feel theyre not putting any strain whatsoever on UK services and the desperate NHS?

Perhaps theyve had to live at the sharp end in Bradford for 40 years and feel they should enjoy a little piece of the French dream for a few years? Or perhaps the same reasons fully trained NHS staff in their 30s, take their UK state paid for training to other countries and leave? Because they can?

I cant answer that. You should ask them. There are many varied and sundry reasons why leave voters voted leave, but its possibly the same logic as 'remainers' and pro EU'ers, buggering off to Aus, the US or wherever before the referendum?

caroline you are very good at listing all the weaknesses of the EU but would you care to list say, 5 things, that will actually improve our lives as a result of leaving the EU?

"Next GE is scheduled for May 2022," Youre right Random. My mistake apols.

Future funding though is always going to be a fruitless and pointless argument at this stage, whether its EU or UK. All any of us can do is conjecture from both areas. Id suggest we all wait to see what falls out in the next 12 months or so, as Im sure the government are doing, to then give them the firm figures to work on re future funding.

Personally, Id be more concerned at the EUs staggering financial black holes that we do know about. The EU absolutely cant maintain the level of spending they currently have.

Well it could be an earlier election if there is a motion of no confidence

Ah right, so the Brexit plan is "wait and see". Inspired, utterly inspired.

"caroline you are very good at listing all the weaknesses of the EU but would you care to list say, 5 things, that will actually improve our lives as a result of leaving the EU?"

The thing is Bear, you dont like my answers, whatever I say, and I also dont have to 'sell' anything to you.

But lets try anyway shall we.

1/ We can now guarantee, that we can only go to war, and send our sons to die, if our parliament approve it and hold absolute authority over that decision. (and boy didnt we learn a lesson from Bliar)
2/ Migrants, who have always been welcomed contrary to what MSM would have you believe, will have a guaranteed job to come to, a guaranteed home, and support for their families. No one in the UK should ever be sleeping under a motorway bridge, unemployed and 1000s of miles from their loved ones. Migrants want to be and feel supported, and we want to support them. How can we do that when they rock up unemployed?
3/ Coming back to parliamentary sovereignty, its so much more than remainers will even consider. The right to decide how we live is huge. If you want Corbyn to nationalise the railways, you can have it. If you want to go all right wing and rip up workers rights, you can. The point is, not what speculative government policy may or may not be coming, but the fact that we have the choice and we have the right to decide. We can make these choices whether good or bad, and we can correct them through general elections and parliamentary votes. How we live, will be our choice.
4/ We would have been forced to join the euro. The eurozone is in such a shitty mess, you'll just have to trust me on that one. Retaining sterling and our independance fiscally will improve your life tenfold over coming years, to the alternative euro.
5/ The female brain drain/gain is not only real but has huge social consequences. Heres a report from CEP on it. Its written looking at Germany and Poland, but the points apply to the UK too. Only sovereign nations can take the needed steps to effectively address this.

http://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/userupload/cep.eu/Studien/Case/Femalee_BrainDrainninPolanddand_Germany.pdf

Oh and Ive got a 6th.....

6/ I want Israel back at the eurovision song contest. Loved Halleluha as a little girl.

Will those do for starters?

"Well it could be an earlier election if there is a motion of no confidence" It could indeed Random, Ill defo agree with you on that one.

Sorry, link didnt work. Try this one.

http://www.cep.eu/fileadmin/userupload/cep.eu/Studien/Case/Femalee_BrainDrainninPolanddand_Germany.pdf

Whys it doing that. Balls. Its putting an extra e, n, and d in the address line and messing up the underscores.

This is a pain (but its a really interesting study and worth it.) Ive had to split it as the underscores cock the whole link up. Any helpers out there?

www.cep.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/cep.eu/studien/case/
female_
brain_
drain_
in_
Poland_
and_
germany.pdf

Putting underscores on one line screws the whole address up, Im guessing MN have shortcuts or something. Sorry its a crap stick it all together link.

Oh FFS. Theres an underscore between user and upload, and then an underscore after female.

I give up now. Apols. If I find another way to do it I will. Theres always google.

Oooh, link to main pdf research paper on this page.....

www.cep.eu/en/eu-topics/details/cep/female-brain-drain-in-poland-and-germany.html

(Hits 'post' with eyes closed ...apols again for the pointless attempts)

Caroline's point 3? the fact that we have the choice and we have the right to decide.

Not sure why we are coming back to sovereignty and choice.. We are a sovereign state which sadly chose the right wing of the Tory party. It is they who are keen on circumventing Parliamentary powers e.g. avoiding the Article 50 vote and trying to use Henry VIII powers to implement legislation with no vote.

I thought acknowledgement of sovereignty was already conceded up thread? Perhaps it was another thread?

As far as the EU is concerned it's just not true for e.g. to say Germany conceded sovereignty to us, or us to them.

Lone matters-domestic* MPs *have 100% control on the following many rules and regulations :Health policy. Education. Fiscal policy. Public expenditure. Monetary policy. Income tax. Corporation tax. Capital gains tax. Inheritance tax. Border control and security. Non-EU immigration. Pensions. Welfare. Foreign policy decisions. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. Property law and succession of estates.

Joint matters -Whilst in the EU members agreed to have a joint say ( our say was 73/748 so 9.7 %) over the following administrative matters.Energy.Climate.Environment.Agriculture. Some Employment. Consumer.Transport. Some crime. Asylum.VAT. Foreign policy (EU). Single Market.Competition.Fisheries.EU migration.

So we jointly decided what happens in the other 27 member states too on things like environmental issues. We are in fact now losing this control.

The pragmatic decision to share some joint law making power over matters requiring decent standards such as Agriculture, environment and food was in return for open access to a $16.6 trillion annual market, a decision that paid off- strengthening the UK’s economic position hugely.

Loving your posting issues Caroline. You're making me feel so much better about what a numpty I am with these things. Also saving up reading the report which is right up my Geek Street - link works now

We would have been forced to join the euro. The eurozone is in such a shitty mess, you'll just have to trust me on that one

I think that says it all really

If you base your decisions on a situation you believe to be the case but is actually completely detracted from reality then of course you are going to reach a different conclusion to those of us who based our decision on the reality of the situation.