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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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TheColdDoesBotherMeAnyway · 28/06/2017 20:56

It's on the AppStore - i just searched for 'commons votes'

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 20:56

Still think this would be a good way to save £1b and democracy:
This is my passport and I identify as picnicbasket smith. Smile

www.toypassport.co.uk

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
missmoon · 28/06/2017 20:59

Thanks for the app, it's great! There is an apple version too.

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 21:03

thank you bigly and hester

boldlygoingsomewhere · 28/06/2017 21:13

I've just got the app too. Looks like I will lose a lot of time checking voting records. Grin

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 21:16

Great app! My dickhead Tory mp voted against of course. He really is a swarmy person. Met him a few times when we were trying to stop houses being built on woodland at the back of me a few years ago. Loads of wildlife lost through it. We fought for 8 years. Luckily there were rare toads and ancient badger setts that held it up for those years but they removed toads and killed badgers.Sad

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 21:25

Just looked through other votes noticed DUP have voted against government before. Surprising what all that money can do and they call others hypocrites!

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 28/06/2017 21:29

Johnny-come-lately place mark from a slow poke. Only 10 pages to get through...

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 21:34

Fab app!

Can't see the EU being happy about this:

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/28/eu-children-may-have-to-apply-to-stay-in-uk-after-brexit-leaked-analysis-says

Lico · 28/06/2017 21:35

How embarrassing.. Trump has accepted Macron's invitation to watch the 14 July military parade on the Chanps Élysées. US military will march alongside French military to celebrate the U.S. joining in the the Great War in 1917. Putin was invited at Versailles very recently. I wonder why Macron is buttering up these two guys.

www.la-croix.com/Monde/Ameriques/Donald-Trump-invite-Emmanuel-Macron-14-Juillet-2017-06-27-1200858596

ElenaGreco123 · 28/06/2017 21:50

Diplomacy

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 21:51

So thinking ahead to other close Commons votes... this one could be interesting. The Lib Dem chief whip will table an amendment to keep the UK in the Single Market. Surely many Tories will have to consult their conscience before that vote.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/alistair-carmichael-urges-cross-party-effort-to-stay-in-single-market-1-4485811/amp

Somerville · 28/06/2017 21:56

No encouraging signs at all coming out of Stormont talks. They've only got until 4pm tomorrow...

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 21:58

Trump is aligning himself with winners ...,

missmoon · 28/06/2017 21:59

Hester when is the vote on the Lib Dem amendment? I want to write to my (Tory) MP about it.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 22:00

Trump wants "regime change" in Iran

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/27/donald-trumps-bloodlust-war-middle-east-iran-chaos

Just what the Middle East wants: another catastrophic war

Even worse Trump intends to smash their allies first in Syria, where they are supporting Assad

  • problem is: Putin is Assad's fiercest supporter, because of an important Russian navy base in Syria

"There is no telling what chaos and destruction such a move would bring, but you can see the war wagons aligning within Trump administration circles as they prepare to move ahead with it anyway."

Lico · 28/06/2017 22:01

I think that they will not consult their conscience. It seems to be a case of 'the party first' or perhaps 'Heil the Party'. It is so upsetting

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 22:09

The LDem amendment to the Queen's Speech - that the UK should stay in the Single Market - is mostly symbolic, an Opposition party putting down a marker.

Of course, if passed, it would be catastrophic for the govt:
if they can't even get their QS passed in the form they want, then they have no hope of passing the Brexit legislation later.

However, there will be plenty of opportunities to add amendments to Brexit bills over the next year at least. I'd expect Ken Clarke to be joined by a few other Tories then.

So, I'd be astonished if any Tory MPs vote with the Opposition on the QS.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 22:12

I can't remember any occasion where MPs from the govt party voted against their own party's Queen's Speech, or for Opposition amendments which directly hindered a major govt policy

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 22:19

I don't think the DUP like Stormont any more, now that Sinn Fein is so close in votes & seats to them.
Especially with Arlene wanting to avoid their questions about her role in losing £500 million* of public money in the Cash For Ash scandal.*

She's got her £2 billion now - hopefully she won't waste that too - so she would be quite happy to swan around boasting.

Stormont is beneath her, now she pulls the Maybot strings

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 22:39

missmoon I can't see the Lib Dem amendment debate on here:

calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/All/2017/7/3/Weekly

The Lib Dems are asking for support with it:

www.libdems.org.uk/lib-dems-single-market-amendment-queens-speech#

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 22:47

Bigchoc I see what you're saying - Tories unlikely to vote against their own QS on the Single Market.

What about the DUP?
In their manifesto they said they'd fight for 'a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement with the EU'.

Sounds a bit like the Single Market?

Section 6, Point 9:
dev.mydup.com/images/uploads/publications/DUP_Wminster_Manifesto_2017_v5.pdf

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 23:09

The last public inquiry Treeza set up was the one into child abuse. When the chair for it was being picked there was rather a lot of criticism over who was suitable leading to the person selected standing down not just once, or twice due to their perceived closeness to individuals or establishments that might be investigated. The third chair has also since stepped down.

Anyway the latest public inquiry to be set up is the one for Grenfell.

Press Association @ PA
#Breaking Retired Court of Appeal judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick to lead the public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower disaster, sources confirm

The reaction to this guy is going down like a lead balloon. Why?

Mutaz Elnour @ MutazElnour
Downing Street has appointed Sir Martin Moore-Bick to be the judge leading the Grenfell inquiry... which should alarm everyone.
2014 he ruled Westminster city council should be allowed to rehouse, Titina Nzolameso, a single mother of five 50 miles away from her home.
Suffered from diabetes and hypertension, and is HIV-positive. Her lawyers denounced the move as "ethnic cleansing". Set dangerous precedent.
Sir Martin Moore-Bick was wrong. The supreme court overturned the ruling, saying authorities had a duty to provide accommodation in the area
Residents of Grenfell Tower, like Titina Nzolameso, want permanent rehousing in the local area. This is the man who's leading their inquiry.
Very big thanks and credit to @SamCoatesTimes @thetimes for the scoop.

Get your popcorn folks... It is hard to see how they could pick someone more unsuitable from the point of view of the residents. If people were worried about a cover up this will massively reassure them... Facepalm

OP posts:
woman12345 · 28/06/2017 23:33

Bick Sad and the numbers on Grenfell (130?) Sader

However the heroes of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign exemplify how to persist. Grenfell is too visceral and times have changed.

GlassOfPort · 28/06/2017 23:34

But are we expecting Labour to vote in favour of Single Market membership?
They keep saying they want to end FOM God only knows why