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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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Thread gallery
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Sostenueto · 01/07/2017 21:23

One wonders whether before 1973 Great Britain ever actually existed because it apparently cannot exist without Europe.Hmm

SwedishEdith · 01/07/2017 21:28

How the businesses of Brexit campaigner ‘King’ Arron Banks overlap

[[https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220]

LurkingHusband · 01/07/2017 21:31

One wonders whether before 1973 Great Britain ever actually existed because it apparently cannot exist without Europe

Britain in 1973 was in the shitter. We actually went bankrupt in 1976.

There was a lot pf pressure from industry to join the EEC, as the Franco-German-Italian coal and steel markets were starting to work as intended, and were increasingly making their industry more efficient compared to the "sick man of Europe" as the UK was known then.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 21:35

Faisal Islam‏*@faisalislam*
Periodic reminder:
Just 2 years ago under Cameron Tories won 30-somethings in GE2015 36%-34%
In GE2017 Corbyn beat May 55%-29%
Via @yougov

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 21:41

We can't win an election by opposing Brexit". Well everyone told you you couldn't win an election from the left. Then you basically did.

That is missing the mark by a WIDE margin.
This thread you posted Red,it shows a a kind of a misunderstanding of this supposedly far left side of Labour. But it is missing the biggest point there:the under 40s have seen, been through a big recession and know some shit about austerity. This same generation is reliant on social media far more than MSM. A large part of Labour vote increase was not Corbyn, it was the manifesto as it hit where it was hot. This generation does understand Brexit is going to be yet another austerity numerous times over. It is indirectly insulting for this part of the youth to be told what this twitter thread is saying basically.
We really really need to understand and respect our youth. I truly believe they are very capable of understanding things beyond "oh Jeremy Corbyn" and when people kinda imply that, they push the youth further away.

A question from everyone please: I have been trying to read a bit about single market vs Corbyn's socialism (we discussed that here last night).
What I understood is this: a socialist like Corbyn will see a giant like EU as a loss of power for people, the people (government of people I mean) who he thinks should have the control or at least heavily regulate the single market as it is. he feels it is hard to achieve this in EU. The major example could be his desire to renationalise railways here.kindly correct me if I am wrong.
I now need to understand on what accounts did he give 7.5 out of 10 to Remain.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 21:56

A few months ago, imagine looking at a 39-45% labour polling post election. Isn't this bit supposed to be, May's 'honeymoon'?

Valentine Just from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom

In the 1970s and early 1980s the Labour Party was the more Eurosceptic of the two parties, with more anti-European Communities MPs than the Conservatives. In 1975, Labour held a special conference on British membership and the party voted 2 to 1 for Britain to leave the European Communities. In 1979, the Labour manifestodeclared that a Labour government would "oppose any move towards turning the Community into a federation" and, in 1983,it still favoured British withdrawal from the EEC.

Under the leadership of Neil Kinnock after 1983, however, the then opposition party dropped its former resistance to the European Communities and instead favoured greater British integration into European Economic and Monetary Union. British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher however gained much popularity with the so-called UK rebate in 1984. Britain then managed to reduce its contributions to the Union to a certain extent, as it was then the EU's second poorest member and, without much agriculture, benefited little from farm subsidies

In Barbara Castle's biography, she was an old school labour pragmatist. And even though she stood as an MEP, she like that generation, including even Brown were against organisations of international capital, which is how they regarded/regard the EU.

There's a Jewish word frum and it means keeping to all the religious observances carefully.

It seems like there is a frum culture, which the SWP, being a quasi religious order, promulgates, which does not distinguish pragmatism from dogma.

And JC is a fellow traveller, obviously.

Well, there are ruder ways of saying all that but............

Sostenueto · 01/07/2017 22:06

Lurking husband we. Existed before the EU the country existed no matter how bad in the 70s the economic situation and we will survive after brexit no matter the economic situation. I understand you all want to stay in but come on be a bit optimistic please! Smile

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:06

I now need to understand on what accounts did he give 7.5 out of 10 to Remain

I think I've just mis read that! Are you saying that he wasn't really /isn't really anti EU? In that case ignore previous post. Grin Confusing times! I do think there are labour and SWP members who think they are being good socialists by being anti EU, though. Hopefully Jezza will learn that it's the art of the possible.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:11

Brexit minister linked to group that used loophole to channel £435,000 to DUP Conservative rightwinger Steve Baker under pressure over relationship with controversial Constitutional Research Council

The new minister for securing the UK’s departure from the EU is under pressure to clarify his relationship with the obscure organisation behind a controversial £435,000 donation to the Democratic Unionist Party during last year’s Brexit referendum.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/brexit-minister-linked-to-group-that-used-loophole-to-channel-435000-to-dup

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:12

Six out of 10 Britons want to keep their European Union citizenship after Brexit – including the rights to live, work, study and travel in the EU – and many would be prepared to pay large sums to do so, according to research led by the London School of Economics.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/poll-european-eu-rights-brexit

Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 22:13

woman its confusing times indeed when two posts of yours are supposed to cancel out each other (that is what I understand!) Grin

So I think I am closer.
For your point regarding 7.5 out of 10, I am nearly completely sure that I have read it from a reliable source. He gave Remain a 7.5.
I have posted on the last page a video from Mike Galsworthy. I think it is a sensible message.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:13

Nigel Farage‏*@Nigel*_Farage

I have made the decision not to put my hat in the ring for the @UKIP leadership.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/01/decided-against-standing-lead-ukip/

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 22:15

He he he he.
Thankfully he has realised the kind of chants that will be made for him. Twitter is inundated with hilarious hashtags around May et al weekly now.
Of all the polls, this is the bigger poll for me. Grin

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:16

And now.

I shall bring you THE best story of the week.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/poll-european-eu-rights-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw
Poll finds that 60% of Britons want to keep their EU citizenship
Cultural and business leaders join campaign to keep rights to live and work in Europe

Six out of 10 Britons want to keep their European Union citizenship after Brexit – including the rights to live, work, study and travel in the EU – and many would be prepared to pay large sums to do so, according to research led by the London School of Economics.

Support for retaining the rights is particularly strong among 18- to 24-year-olds, 85% of whom want to retain their EU citizenship in addition to their British citizenship. Around 80% of people living in London also want to maintain the same rights.

The findings come as pressure on Theresa May mounts from UK business groups, led by the CBI and Remain politicians in both houses of parliament, as well as cultural figures from across Europe, to pull back from her plans for a “hard Brexit” in favour of a deal that maintains the strongest possible trade and other links with the EU after the UK leaves in 2019.

Spectacular.

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:17

Damn you beat me to it !

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:22

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/brexit-minister-linked-to-group-that-used-loophole-to-channel-435000-to-dup?CMP=share_btn_tw
Brexit minister linked to group that used loophole to channel £435,000 to DUP
Conservative rightwinger Steve Baker under pressure over relationship with controversial Constitutional Research Council

The new minister for securing the UK’s departure from the EU is under pressure to clarify his relationship with the obscure organisation behind a controversial £435,000 donation to the Democratic Unionist Party during last year’s Brexit referendum.

Steve Baker, a leading light on the Tory right, has also received £6,500 from the Constitutional Research Council, the body behind the DUP donation. The revelation has heightened interest in the council and its links to two powerful organisations now holding sway over British politics: the DUP, whose 10 MPs are propping up the Tory government, and the European Research Group, an increasingly influential group of around 80 pro-Brexit MPs that was chaired by Baker until he stood down last month.

Watch this one. I have a feeling this story is going to sprout legs.

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woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:29

Watch this one It's one of ours. Smile

Confused valentine but your May hashtags are a better idea for polls.Grin

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:31

^Top Tories in revolt against May over public spending
Jeremy Hunt and Justine Greening tell PM it is time to ease austerity as poll shows party leader’s popularity plummeting^

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/top-tories-revolt-against-may-public-spending

The march today was useful. Smile

Sostenueto · 01/07/2017 22:36

Nicola Sturgeon asking for pause in Brexit negotiations to form a cross party agreement on way forward.

Sostenueto · 01/07/2017 22:39

Tuition fee u-turn expected by Tories. May is exactly like a u-turn in a toilet.Grin

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:39

Sunday Telegraph lead story:
'No 10 plots Brexit walkout'

Already seeing comments like this:
Trevor Greetham @ trevorgreetham
If true, this is very depressing. Are we being set up for a 'no deal', blamed on Europe because proper negotiation is just too much effort?

M Schommer @ musevg
That was Tories' plan from day one: Hard Brexit & #BlametheEU

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 22:44

The DM Reporter @ DMReporter
READERSHIP: And the comment of the day is…

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
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woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:47

Replying to @davidallengreen
No more accusing the government of not having a plan. The plan is to walk out to cover up the lack of a plan. Cunning!

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 22:51

A senior Downing Street figure briefed industry and City bosses to prepare for the Prime Minister walking away from negotiations in September.

The move would be designed for “domestic consumption” to show Mrs May was playing tough over the €100 billion (£87.7 billion) some EU figures want the UK to pay before leaving.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/01/theresa-may-could-storm-brexit-talks-divorce-bill/

'domestic consumption^ is one way of putting it.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 23:11

sos The UK post Brexit won't suddenly become Biafra.
However, life outside the EU will be tougher if you aren't wealthy, or not one of those swashbuckling entrepreneurs that would enjoy the freedom after a Bonfire of Regulations.

In the old days up until the 1950s, countries traded individually.
Now however, only about 6 countries of the 190 or so in the world don't belong to a trade bloc - almost always including their nearest neighbours.

The UK is the only country to be leaving their neighborhood bloc and reverting to the old individual trading philosophy
Countries, like individual workers, usually get better deals within the combined power of a union.

The UK is the only one leaving umpteen vital international agencies like EURATOM, which means having to build its own agencies and facilities from scratch.
Losing the economies of scale, pooling of talent and admin which multinational agencies bring

Having to renegotiate international agreements of all kinds, e.g. for international flights to take off or land.

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