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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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Thread gallery
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Peregrina · 01/07/2017 23:17

What exactly is Farage up to? Has he got bigger fish to fry? The cosying up to Trump didn't really work out all that well.

So May storms out of the talks - but this is for domestic consumption i.e. appease the right wing of the Tory party. When are the men in suits going to come for her? We might get our 'wartime' Coalition yet, and the country will be the better for it.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 23:28

The exit bill is just the excuse:

Brexiters promised unicorns
May looked under the rainbow and couldn't find any

She may have decided a walkout is the only alternative to a humiliating climbdown on FOM and ECJ.

If it's intended to impress the EU, it may backfire
The EU wants a deal, but the Uk needs one far more.

A walkout just wastes time while the A50 clock goes tick tock, tick rock and no trade deal
There'll be no time extension for tantrums

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 23:45

Dunning-Kruger in action

(Times paywall)* Davis is a dangerous driver of the Brexit bus*

The buccaneering optimism shown by our chief negotiator with the EU is deluded and alarming.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davis-is-a-dangerous-driver-of-the-brexit-bus-xshs7h7rj

It’s all going to be for the best, in the best of all possible worlds.
That was the rosy forecast for Brexit presented by David Davis at a CEO summit hosted by The Times this week.
Sunny uplands lay ahead.
It would be simple to complete an EU deal by March 2019, Hmm
giving us almost all the trading benefits we currently enjoy Hmm
and, immediately afterwards, during a very short transition period, we would be free to sign glorious trade agreements with the rest of the world.
.....
There is much to be said for confidence and hope.
There is nothing to be said for Panglossian fantasy, particularly when one man holds the future of our country in his hands.

It did not go down well with many of those in the room:
one grim-faced CEO, until then agnostic on Brexit, turned to me to say that listening to Davis had been the most disturbing half an hour he had spent in months.

Europe has repeatedly made clear to Britain that leaving the EU means we will trade on worse terms than we do now.
^
Every credible economic body, from the OECD to the Bank of England, reports that Brexit is already injuring the economy.

No one with experience of government, Europe or trade negotiations seriously believes that disentangling ourselves from the continent and creating a new relationship is going to be simple, quick and all to Britain’s benefit.

Even Davis’s cabinet colleagues don’t share his insouciance < hence plans for a walkout, to make excuses in advance >
The chancellor, Philip Hammond, is much more alarmed by the danger of a bad Brexit
....
There is no basis to Davis’s confidence in what he can achieve other than sublime self-belief.
The comments from those who’ve worked with him are scathing:
“hates to listen to advice”,
“delusions of grandeur”,
”vain and quixotic”,
“all noise and bluster”.

One appalled politician told me:
“He has no practical sense of the realities he’s about to confront”.

Businesses, diplomats and civil servants report that he prefers assertion to getting to grips with inconvenient facts.

His department, Dexeu, is finding it hard to recruit and keep staff, in part because Davis has acquired a reputation as a difficult man to work for.
.....
“He’s not interested in evidence when it doesn’t suit him,” says one insider.

Much like the Red Queen, he is capable of thinking six contradictory things before breakfast.

An economist reports:
“All the evidence of economic benefits that he uses to justify new trade deals is the same evidence that he dismisses when it comes to the effects of leaving the EU.”

Jill Rutter at the Institute for Government is worried by the absence of any informed proposals from Dexeu on how new arrangements for customs, immigration or the Irish border would actually work.

Businesses that have come to see Davis have been left aghast at the lack of detailed understanding.

Pharmaceutical companies are afraid of losing free access to the European medicines market;

aerospace representatives warned him that
the plans to leave the customs union and the single market would destroy their ability to import and export parts freely,
and that without that Britain’s aerospace industry would collapse.

Davis fobbed them all off with vague assurances that none of this was a problem; it would all be fine.
They were not reassured.

Davis cannot afford to ignore facts, whether political or economic.
Britain’s dealmaker needs a shrewd grasp of our strategic needs and our relative weakness.
As the country’s chief negotiator, his role is not to grandstand or cheerlead, but to be a tactful, wily, charming realist.

So far he is not up to the task.
An ambassador from a senior member state, who has been briefed on how Davis is viewed by the EU now, has a crushing verdict:

“He is part of the problem.
He doesn’t know the dossiers well.
His style is arrogant, he is full of bluster.”

A European insider says Davis appears to have an inflated, jingoistic faith in Britain’s influence which is not going to play out well.

“He’s going to be humiliated again and again by the EU, as he was in the first week.

How will someone as vain as Davis explain that?.”

Even a senior Tory peer and Brexiteer is worried by his performance so far:
“I am, frankly, scared. I’d be surprised if it all went right now.”

Davis has supreme faith in his abilities.
He sees himself as a buccaneering, judicious risk-taker.
But his big judgments have frequently been wrong.
.....
Now all of us are at the mercy of this careless cavalier.

It’s a grim prospect.
His cabinet colleagues need to put pressure on the prime minister to rein him in, and force a more realistic consensual approach.

Europe can see through us.
Our emperor’s emissary needs more clothes.

annandale · 01/07/2017 23:56

Trying to get inside Farage's head.

I'm assuming he wants some kind of platform. I can't remember if he is still actually an MEP - maybe not. Since the Tories lurched right to kneecap the Kippers who are now irrelevant, he won't go back to them. Presumably he would happily stand as a Tory now but he is too toxic for Central Office. Also all the pro Corbyn tweets - presumably just stirring though.

I'd predict a few more years of whatever he is officially doing now - journalism? and then some kind of third sector letterhead job.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2017 00:02

Richard North describing highly complex position papers from the EU
< awaits DD's macho blustering response >

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86525

we saw on Thursday, six new position papers from the European Commission, setting out more details of the EU's negotiating stance.

Subjects covered were important, ranging from "Goods placed on the Market under Union law before the withdrawal date" to "Governance", "Issues relating to the Functioning of the Union Institutions, Agencies and Bodies" and "Judicial Cooperation in Civil and Commercial Matters".

Nevertheless, my heart sank.
The excruciating detail, covering minutia to a degree unimagined by the wand-wavers in the Brexit camp, suggests that the Commission machine is going to grind exceeding slow and thorough.

Such unremitting detail can but take time, and if this is the way the Commission is going to handle things, then just the first phase of the talks is going to last forever.

HashiAsLarry · 02/07/2017 00:28

Faisal Islam is tweeting about Japan car part deal with eu.

EU-Japan free trade deal could be signed imminently -UK included for now, elimination of 90% tariffs on car parts..
eu concession

..90% OF tariffs!...need to agree "cumulative rules of origin" with EU for deals like this, as Japan asked in Sep.. i.e. No chance "no deal"
Photo linked to second tweet

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
squoosh · 02/07/2017 02:28

..

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 06:27

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-gove-ban-eu-fishing-10721971
Michael Gove to ban EU fishing boats from trawling within six miles of Britain's coasts - as he rips up 1964 deal

The Environment Secretary is ripping up the 1964 London Fisheries Convention which precedes our EU membership by nine years.

It gave France, Germany, Belgium, Ireland and Holland the right to fish between six and 12 miles off our shores.

Now Mr Gove will announce he is pulling out of that deal in two years along with the EU’s Common Fisheries Policy which allows European boats to fish 12 to 200 miles offshore.

Fab! Let's rip up something that isn't EU in addition to everything else. Can't wait to see the plan for enforcement. Fully costed.

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 06:50

More on the Japanese car thing hashi mentioned from Fasial Islam

Fasial Islam @ Fasial
... that appears to mean at very least we'll have to end up part of this... if we want to keep auto factories...
ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/calculation-customs-duties/rules-origin/general-aspects-preferential-origin/arrangements-list/paneuromediterranean-cumulation-pem-convention_en
The pan-Euro-Mediterranean cumulation and the PEM Convention

... not seeing many politicians question Government on its approach to diagonal cumulation of rules of origin - and yet this is vital detail

Check out impact on U.K. Textiles from whether we do or don't ent up a member of the Pan Euro Med cumulation zone:
e15initiative.org/blogs/brexit-and-the-european-cumulation-of-origin-the-case-of-the-textile-industry/
Brexit and the European cumulation of origin: The case of the textile industry

While in the EU, the UK has access to Europe’s cumulation zone known as the Pan–Euro–Med (PEM) zone.

The PEM zone currently comprises the EU, the EFTA States (Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein), Albania, Algeria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, the Faroe Islands, Israel, Jordan, Kosovo, Lebanon, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Morocco, Palestine, Serbia, Syria, Tunisia and Turkey (and partially Andorra and San Marino). It is based on trade agreements (FTAs, customs unions, etc.) with identical rules of origin signed between members.

The PEM Convention allows for cumulation of originating materials between different countries within the zone. In some cases, the operations conferring origin of non-originating materials can take place across the entire cumulation zone. The latter, referred to as full cumulation, in the context of the PEM zone operates within the European Economic Area (EEA) and between the EU and Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.

Leaving the PEM zone would have an impact on all UK industries currently taking advantage of this arrangement. The textile and clothing (T/C) industry can be used as an example of an industry where the PEM zone offers a number of benefits.

The T/C industry has a complex value chain which is reflected in industry-specific rules of origin. Under the PEM Convention, most clothing goods are subject to a double transformation rule. The double transformation rule of origin means that at least two substantial stages of production are needed to confer origin: in order for an item of clothing to obtain preferential origin, the weaving of fabric from yarn and the cutting and sewing of a garment from fabric would need to take place within the PEM zone.

For example, coats made in Morocco from both EU and Turkish fabrics can be exported to countries within the PEM zone. If Turkey and Morocco were not members of the PEM zone, Turkish inputs would be considered non-originating and the coats would not be eligible for a preferential tariff when re-exported to the EU (or vice versa to Turkey) according to the double transformation rule of origin.

And this is why walking out of a deal with the EU is completely nuts.

Sam Freedman @ samfr
Whispers to Brexit team this is less effective tactic if you tell them you're going to do in advance.

Metatone @ Metatone2
whispers it's not really an effective tactic if you have more to lose from "no deal" than they do...

I can't wait to see the fully costed plan for this beauty. Customs. Training. Hiring. All in 18 months with no deal.

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 06:52

Stock up on any clothing requirements you might have in the next ten years. RIP Primark UK as we know it.

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TheElementsSong · 02/07/2017 06:53

Let's rip up something that isn't EU in addition to everything else. Can't wait to see the plan for enforcement. Fully costed.

Since we are leaving EURATOM just because it has the now-offensive "Euro" in the name, it is entirely to be expected that we are pulling out of this, when we know that Leavers have found fish infinitely more important than minor trivialities like nuclear safety.

As for plans and cost - we simply have to say that it will be a success and both fishermen and fish will obey; it will cost nothing and bring only glorious benefits.

Utterly simple, really. What are you, some kind of Remoaner Talking Britain Down?

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 07:10

I'm a proud Remoaner. If Remoaner also means being bothered about having food, clothing, energy supplies and a roof over my head. You know the luxuries in life.

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 07:11

Not all of us can rely on our 'other money' after all.

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GaspodeWonderCat · 02/07/2017 07:16

Enforcing fisheries policy. Well we do have a brand new aircraft carrier - with no aircraft yet ... That would give it a purpose in life.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 07:19

Is that our aircraft carrier? Or one we share with France?

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TheElementsSong · 02/07/2017 07:19

If Remoaner also means being bothered about having food, clothing, energy supplies and a roof over my head.

But we will be able to keep warm and fed on the heady feelings of Sovereignty and Freedom from the influences of Foreigners!

Artisanjam · 02/07/2017 07:39

Does anyone think it would be worth writing to Theresa may as I don't have a conservative MP anymore to express disgust in advance at any proposed walk out from the negotiations with the EU?

My current mp is lib dem so I'd expect her to agree that it would be disgraceful but not be able to put any pressure on.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 07:41

From Nov 2010
www.channel4.com/news/uk-and-france-plan-military-co-operation

Liam Fox was the minister who took responsibility in hammering out the defence deal in which aircraft carrier use is to be shared with the French. The controversial bilateral treaty was not popular due to how the French view their soveignity. (Irony klaxon)

Under the treaty the idea is that the UK or France always ensure that an aircraft carrier is always available for use by either. The plan also is supposed to provide provision for uniquely British interests.

However I'm not sure that defending the British coast line against our European neighbours and the French themselves is included in this defence deal.

The C4 article above also links to an earlier article from that year with this beautiful quote about our Liam.

The Times quoted a Whitehall source as saying: “Liam has made it clear that we want more co-operation as we have to face up to the world we are living in.

Ah good to see Liam's a man true to his word and consistent in his beliefs. And not an utter fruit loop like some of the rest of the cabinet...

Oh.

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 07:47

Oh and about walking out on the EU because of a dispute over our divorce bill.

Mr Barky @ saftycyclist
Am I right in thinking that this affects access to WTO as non payment is considered reneging on a trade deal by other WTO member nations?

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DividedKingdom · 02/07/2017 08:13

Oh great, I see the nation's leaders have managed to excavate the depths of embarrassing and damaging behaviour still further.

I have never understood any love for DD. He really does epitomize the Dunning Kruger effect. And he's such a smug patronizing twat too...urgh.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2017 08:49

I'm unsure whether the Labour leadership basically share the Tory ignorance and delusions about Brexit, but want different and more competent negotiating tactics,
i.e. never give up negotiating

or whether they secretly expect Brexit to crash the economy, keep the Tories out for a generation and their chance for power with a red-blooded socialist agenda that will transform the country back to ore-Thatcher times.
Of course that depends on Tories not being able to push the blame elsewhere and rule a low wage tax haven UK.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 08:57

Upon reflection there's more going on here that meets the eye.

The story about walking out of talks isn't new. We've all been aware of it and talking about it for months.

So why has it resurfaced now?

The clue is in the headline itself.

'No 10 plots Brexit Walkout'

Before the election, the mood was 'no deal is better than a bad deal' as a strategy was fine. The election blew up the mandate for that and since then support has dropped off even more.

The Telegraph phrases it as May is still planning to do this as is it's a dastardly action and must be stopped. It's an attack on her, her leadership and the idea of no deal. Whether it's true that May is still in this mindset is irrelevant. It's easy to capitalise on the idea that she doesn't listen. They can sink the toxic 'no deal' as policy with May.

That is what the story is really about.

Big Choc has just quoted that Time article from 29th June about how nutty Davis is and how unsuitable he is for Brexit.

Then it was followed by the BBC article about how Davis was 'hamstrung' by May.

We also have Gove spouting off about a plan to do with soveignity about everyone favorite EU victim, the poor British fisherman in a way that Nigel would be proud of.

Gove is also talking about Green Brexit
in the Times today

Tasked with finding a future for farming after the EU subsidies are turned off, and convincing voters that leaving can mean “a green Brexit”, the new environment secretary says he is doing a lot of listening.

And

Gove says he does not yet have "a master plan down to every last detail" but he knows what he wants to achieve. "I want to achieve a green Brexit: a Brexit which ensures we develop policies on the environment and animal welfare which we would not have been able to do in the EU"

I'm not entirely sure which EU rules restrict our green efforts but is that the idea of a plan suddenly is important and thus is quite a departure from this this article from March which was critical of 'red tape' that could now be removed in deregulation.

It's almost as if various cabinet members were desperately trying to air their personal positions on Brexit, distance themselves from May and discredit their Cabinet rivals and their Brexit positions.

It sounds like May is being stitched up to go before the German Election rather than May plotting to walk out of Brexit talks after the German Election.

May might try and head it off, but in order to do that she now has to be seen doing a public U-turn on 'No deal is better than a bad deal'. Which won't please everyone but is a political necessity anyway as any attempt to do it won't wash in parliament.

Such a denial will however further damage her and weaken her publicly, and therefore make her more vulnerable to a leadership challenge. It's lose - lose for May.

Indeed this morning in response to a thread from March about the Brexit walk out rumour I've seen this tweet:

Sean Murphy @ seanlive888
My sources( from a certain department) tell me Davis had 10 pages drafted on the day A50 was triggered and he's getting ready to ambush May

The Tory knives are out in full force. Expect it to be in broad daylight in weeks. If not sooner.

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Sostenueto · 02/07/2017 09:00

How to overturn a Democratic vote by Theresa May.

  1. Call an unneeded election.
  2. Keep saying directly after referendum no deal is better than a bad deal, just to let the EU know you want it all your own way.
3 repeat this several times. 4 send in DD a brexiteer to be scapegoat for negotiations. 5 hamstring your negotiations team because you really want hard brexit (although secretly you are a remainer). 6 eventually walk out of negotiations after a suitable long period in hope labour party disintegrates . 7 parliament votes you down on no deal and says its not on ole girl and you can exit quickly as new leader is put in place who promptly calls for another referendum where they make sure public is aware of disadvantages if leaving.
  1. Referendum held result 60% to stay in due to young voters. Everybody breathes a sigh of relief.
  2. Hold a remembrance service for what was the UK as it gradually gets swallowed up by the EU and disappears up its own arsehole.........
10. Hold a massive celebration headed by Murdoch et all to say yay! We won.
BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2017 09:06

(S Times paywall)* No 10 drifts like the Mary Celeste, unable to navigate the reef of Brexit*

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/no-10-drifts-like-the-mary-celeste-unable-to-navigate-the-reef-of-brexit-q8xrs9xmm

The general election settled nothing. Theresa May did not get the mandate she was seeking for her approach to Brexit.
No party’s manifesto has the majority backing of MPs.

Yet the Queen’s speech was passed, setting the UK on course for just the kind of hard Brexit that the prime minister advocated when she triggered article 50 in March to begin the withdrawal process.
.....
Behind last week’s solidly partisan parliamentary arithmetic, both Labour and the Conservatives are more divided than ever.
Old scars are festering in the swamp waters of Brexit.

Philip Hammond, the chancellor, wants a new direction, but so far the ship of state is drifting onwards with no one at the helm.

Visitors liken the deserted offices of post-election No 10 to the ghost ship Mary Celeste.

Minutes after May’s strong performance in prime minister’s questions, one cabinet minister said:
“It won’t make any difference: you can’t stick the pieces together again.”
.....
The electoral rebuff to May’s nativist rhetoric means all sides are paying lip-service to the notion that this must be an “economy and jobs first” Brexit.

So far nobody at Westminster is daring to state openly that that implies closer ties to the EU than a hard Brexit would permit.
......
Advocates of a “hard” Brexit reject the term, but we know what it means.
The UK will withdraw from the EU’s three elements — the free trade area, the customs union and the single market — because only this will bring about the three key objectives of leaving:
an end to “free movement of peoples”, freedom to negotiate bilateral trade agreements globally and escape from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.
.....
Labour’s manifesto merely assumed that a hard Brexit was going to happen.
Disingenuously, it proposed having the cake of managed immigration and eating a slice of free trade with the EU on the side.

No one in Labour, including the learned Brexit spokesman Sir Keir Starmer, has been able to explain how they propose to achieve this double mouthful, given the EU’s flat refusal to put it on the menu.

The conflicting signals worked
.....
Many Labour pragmatists, headed by the party’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, are happy to keep this studied ambiguity going for electoral reasons, even if they oppose nearly everything Corbyn stands for.
.....
Umunna’s amendment was put down as a marker, to rally support inside and beyond the party for the serious battle likely to get under way in the autumn.
Once divorce terms have been settled, negotiations in Westminster and Brussels will shift to Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU.
.....
Accepting a hard Brexit could speed up the negotiations.
If out means out, the UK will not be looking for much.
.....
The Conservatives still hope that fear of the hard left will keep them in power, but after Corbyn’s surge they are afraid of testing their theory any time soon.
.....
Keeping Theresa May in office staves off upheaval, but it is also preventing the development of new thought on Brexit. Maintaining unity means not provoking the 50 or so Brexit hardliners. Their critics in the party note that the “Ukip Tories” have fallen conspicuously silent when practical aspects of leaving the EU are under discussion.

A reckoning is inevitable.
At the very latest, it will come in two years’ time, when MPs get their “meaningful vote” on the deal that is agreed, or not, with Brussels.
If the politicians cling to hard Brexit unthinkingly, it will only make their choice starker in the end: in or out.

If a hard Brexit or remain is the choice MPs leave themselves when the moment of truth arrives, it will shatter both main parties beyond repair.

woman12345 · 02/07/2017 09:09

It's a tory leadership campaign, again, then.

And yet again, British people and business caught in the crossfire.

Domestic consumption, eh.

It is so selfish.

Peregrina I hope you are right, up thread, that it will force a coalition for remain. Can't argue with 60% wanting to retain EU rights, although many will.. Confused

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