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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:23

The ukips seem to have everyone still in some sort of strangle hold

Dealers

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woman12345 · 30/06/2017 23:26

Dealers exactly.

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 23:38

FFS.the thread moves at the speed of light.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:42

labourlist.org/2017/03/keir-starmer-labour-has-six-tests-for-brexit-if-theyre-not-met-we-wont-back-the-final-deal-in-parliament/

Keir Starmer: Labour Has Six Tests For Brexit – If They’re Not Met We Won’t Back The Final Deal In Parliament

Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

I want what he's smoking. Seriously. "Exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union

Hey that's easily solved. It's called errrrr the Single Market and Customs Union. And we could do all the others by eeeerrrr staying in the EU. That's a novel approach no one's considered yet in negotiations.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 23:50

No deal without FOM and ECJ will have even close to the "exact same benefits" as being in the EU.

Starmer is either very ignorant, or very dishonest.

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 23:50

Red Red Red! Can't you see what is happening here?

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 23:52

I have been talking to many Leave voters last few months.
i think what is happening here is a classic smoke screen.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 23:57

SNP unilaterally scraps 1% pay cap on public sector workers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/29/scottish-government-abandons-public-sector-pay-cap

If that happens, I wonder if there will be significant internal immigration from English & Welsh teachers, nurses, police, firefighters etc (those without family commitments)

I also wonder how they can pay for it - unless NS receives a few extra DUPs

Peregrina · 30/06/2017 23:57

i think what is happening here is a classic smoke screen.

It's late, I'm tired, what is happening? Preparing us for the EEA? With a view to quietly forgetting the whole business?
Getting ready to knife Mrs May in the back?

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 23:57

I think one of the best thing that worked out brilliant for Labour in this election was having no straight words out of anyone from the top tier that could be twisted by Torygraph, Fail, etc. I think it was a brilliant political move.
Extending that here, I think, so far, it is going fine.
On the other hand, I can completely understand why so many people are demanding absolute clarifications and discussion now. Some of the damage to the Financial sector of this country is done, Brexit or not. So I can understand why this is a frustrating strategy. (I so far believe it is a strategy 😂).

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:57

If only Valentine. Words are meaningless. Watch the actions and the votes. They want to act brexity but sound remainy. Not the reverse. It's to make the Tories look bad but preserve their chances of winning the next election. If they do get another shot before Brexit's done then they'll implode themselves if they win.

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 00:05

They want to act brexity but sound remainy
This is why I was cursing this thread a few posts back. I haven't been able to catch up and I don't know why you are saying exactly opposite of what I feel is happening. I am sure you have posted proof of why you are saying this. Can you please please bother summarising a bit?

My "feeling" was right about GE results so I am probably hoping a bit too much it is right this time around.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 00:09

Labour can promise a Unicorn Brexit , knowing they'll never have to produce it.
They are just waiting for the GE after the Tories deliver a Dog's Brexit
then claim they could have delivered unicorns

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 00:16

If we approach the cliff edge in Autumn 2018, without a deal, that's decision time for the Tories:
be hammered for allowing FOM + ECJ,
or be hammered for an economic crash

No one knows yet if they'll jump over the cliff, including the Tories themselves.

Labour are very lucky they didn't win the GE
If they had ... remember Boris's face on 24 June when he realised he'd accidentally "won "

Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 00:17

What I have really only just started to understand is the magnitude of work we need to do for increasing the level of understanding in our public about how the world works. And I owe it to all the discussion that happened after Brexit.
its a bit like Harry Potter: to make sure majority understands Brexit and is on the same page, you go maddeningly slow.
I really hope I am right Red. Because it is what this country needs badly. And because the youth will become so sour if what you are saying is true. That is nearly as big a danger as Brexit itself.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 00:20

This is why I was cursing this thread a few posts back. I haven't been able to catch up and I don't know why you are saying exactly opposite of what I feel is happening. I am sure you have posted proof of why you are saying this. Can you please please bother summarising a bit?

Then if you feel that they are achieving what they set out to do. Remainers need to feel the hope whilst Brexiteers need to see action right now.

BigChoc has it right there. It's delivering the unicorn. It's fundamentally dishonest.

Remember it will be difficult to deliver the Brexit at all with out Labour being complicit in some way even if it's behind closed doors. May has too many rebels for that not to be the case. If Labour wanted to block things completely in theory they could with Conservative rebel help. It's a conscious decision not to.

If you don't see that happening and instead you get Conservative rebels using Labour merely to get concessions then they are pro-brexit for all the attempts not to look it.

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 00:23

And because the youth will become so sour if what you are saying is true. That is nearly as big a danger as Brexit itself.

Corbyn is lying to them. He is ideologically opposed to the single market. He like FoM in principle. But single market going is more important to his vision of socialism.

It is going to get messy at some point. This is the problem.

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 00:23

bigchoc
I think Tories are doomed either way now and they have started to realise it too. If Corbyn stays, even if Tories bring all the stars down to earth as the next PM candidate, they will still lose big.
I agree that win for Labour was not what I was hoping for. It is a tremendous work ahead. Not only we have to deal with the Brexshit itself, we need to change the whole narrative that brought us to this point. It would have been ideal for May to lose it and hand over the mess in its current state to Corbyn.
I just don't think a lot of Tories were thinking that way though. I still remember the look on Rudd's face (distinctly evil satisfaction for me).

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 00:26

Labour can lose the next election easily. That would had the Tories their majority. Labour success relies of keeping the pretence of being pro remain up. That will get increasingly difficult. Beware of the voter who votes with conscious over it rather than voting just against the Tories.

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 00:30

X post with Red.
Now you have given me the homework to read on how the single market concept is against Corbyn's socialism ideals.
Thanks Hmm

Peregrina · 01/07/2017 00:38

So trying to piece it together - Labour has the support of the younger vote, which tended to be Remain. Paid up supporters tended to be Remain. The Labour vote in those 'heartlands' which tended to vote Leave, didn't go and desert to the Tories/UKIP in large numbers - barring a few exceptions. So Labour can sit on the fence a bit, but gradually skew the narrative.

Meanwhile paid up Tory supporters, mostly elderly, plus a few braying moneyed younger ones, mostly voted Leave, so May still has to appease them.

As a LibDem supporter I was obviously disappointed that we didn't do better on election night, but I was extremely pleased with the overall result - the Tories still have to sort out the mess. With just the odd day after the Queen's speech they are already showing splits, but are just about keeping the lid on them.

Dog's Brexit Grin Grin Worth adopting.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 00:44

No one can rely on the other side being doomed
SuperMac's "Events, dear boy, events"

Tories seem to have a poisoned chalice for which they cannot escape blame.

However, I've posted my view before in nuclear war terms:
the Tories are the cockroaches of politics.
They don't care how hideous the world becomes or what detritus they have to wade through,
but they survive.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 00:48

< bows to Pegrina > proudly passes on Dog's Brexit
(I bet the Tories wish they could too !)

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 00:48

Valentine the idea that Corbyn is playing the long game has to start with him planning that prior to the actual referendum which simply doesn't work. Why? Because he called for a50 to be triggered on 24th June which led directly to the Chicken Coup. It makes no sense.

The truth is at best Corbyn was luke warm to remaining but was perfectly happy with leaving should it go the other way. He continues to be of this mindset but as it gives him a Brexit opportunity for crushing the principles of the single market which he dislikes, leave makes more sense from his pov. And to destroy the Tories with it at the same time is the double bonus.

If Labour were serious about either staying or thinking they would be responsible for Brexit they would publish a paper on how to do that or how to soften it. They had an alternative queen's speech. Why not approach to Brexit.

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QuentinSummers · 01/07/2017 00:55

I though the "exact same deal as...." was mirroring what David Davis said we would get at the outset. Basically labour trying to hold the Tories to account. Which they should be doing.
Maybe I dreamt it though because these threads are the most likely place I would've read that