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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 00:58

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-playing-long-game-secure-soft-brexit

"there is no group of people anywhere else in the European Union who believes that Britain leaving without a deal is good for anyone.
The only people who believe this are some on the right of the Conservative Party
and a minority in Jeremy Corbyn’s inner circle.
....
ultimately, under the British system, parliament is sovereign and if there is a parliamentary majority for a longer transition,
or an exit deal that retains one or both of Britain’s membership of the customs union or the single market,
then parliament can bind Theresa May to seek it.
.....
What really matters is not that Corbyn wants a drastic exit from the European Union,
but that, at present, the bulk of Labour MPs agree with him."

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 01:18

If Labour wanted to stop Brexit it could with the help of Tory Rebels.

The numbers are there.

Bottom line.

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Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 01:18

If Labour were serious about either staying or thinking they would be responsible for Brexit they would publish a paper on how to do that or how to soften it. They had an alternative queen's speech. Why not approach to Brexit.
You are thinking like Red. You need to put yourself into the shoes of the Leavers in my village, the people who frequent Brexit Arms sort of places. There is no way you will win them with anything that involves a fact based paper or that sort of stuff.
While I am still trying to read and understand why you think Corbyn is again single market as a concept, the last thing I will endorse in the shoes of this class of Labour supporter is a white paper.
The general British public mood right now is hoping all of this goes away from mainstream discussion and comes back only when something is decided. You are going to overwhelm people with information if you start releasing white papers right now.
We need an education emergency in this country I agree. But right now we need to go extremely slow. Changing narrative is the main target here, not stopping Brexit. I have a feeling that Merkel understand this very well too.

Valentine2 · 01/07/2017 01:24

If Labour wanted to stop Brexit it could with the help of Tory Rebels.
And leave the way open for the return of Farage?
I am essentially not supporting Corbyn blindly here. If I completely ignore that he is the current Labour leader, I would still say Labour shouldn't form an alliance with Tories rebels to stop Brexit at this stage.
That will bring things back full circle.the power of Dacre and Murdoch is hugely diluted but they have still got plenty.
We need to change the narrative.
I must admit I have no idea how this perception of mine will change when I actually understand what Corbyn has against Single Market.

mathanxiety · 01/07/2017 01:27

So much for the DUP supposedly being on the left economically - not when they are paid enough.
Clearly an alliance with the Tories, not just confidence and supply arrangement. [BigChoc]

Wrt the public sector pay vote and the DUP - the public sector accounts for abut 30% of NI employment iirc, and thanks to rampant discrimination before the 1990s, plenty of those employees are loyalist. This is the DUP taking care of its own. NI politics is about division of the spoils of office.

The spoils were never shared equally - constituencies were gerrymandered to prevent any effective opposition to the corruption. The beneficiary of it all was the loyalist community. The unionist/loyalist parties did this without any shame - or reprimand from Westminster - from 1922 onwards (hence the Civil Rights movement).

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 01:53

I am thinking about the point that people in your village won't have a clue about a paper like that. I am thinking that responsible government in waiting would have a plan rather than a fudge.

The white paper isn't about selling it to the public. It's about actually having a proper public discussion in circles who are influential and have a fucking clue about crucial issues. Everyone wants to stick their fingers in their ears about going lalala I'm not listening give me cake anyway. If Labour don't do it then it sets the country up for horrendous glaring holes in any deal either any Tories or Labour Brexit. It's bad for the country whatever happens.

Changing the narrative in other ways won't stop Brexit because these leavers can't connect the dots and won't ever. Because they don't want to. They simply want Brexit because. Changing their mind costs too much pride. And being British is being proud. A change in narrative only supports socialist views. Not staying in the EU. Cos these are two separate ideas that are not connected in these minds.

If you want to change the narrative of Brexit, at some point you have to actually talk about Brexit. As in the leader has to. Not get his clever lawyer lackey mumbling on about stuff that's utter none sensical garbage when put under the finest microscope. Nor is it going on stage at Glastonbury criticising Trump for building walls whilst simultaneously planning to do the same here by ending FoM and walking out of the ECJ. Cos y'know sovereignty.

At the moment Brexit seems to be rather like fight club. First rule of Brexit club, don't talk about Brexit club. It's only at the end of the film you find out you've been punching yourself in the face all along.

Thinking Corbyn is some kind of saviour from Brexit is madness. Pure and utter madness. His shadow chancellor is John McDonnell FFS. Corbyn now relies on not being scrutinized and protected by the bubble of popularity and in contrast to May's ineptitude. He is the politics of hope. You don't question hope because where are you left if you realise that hope is misplaced?

In terms of saving up from Tory corrupt gastly sell offs, yes he probably will have a good go. But being the economic and cultural pariah off the coast of the EU with our flags and national pride that ain't going to fucking work either. The 'fully costed' manifesto is fatally flawed in its silence over the cost of Brexit. You'll just end up with basket casery of a different kind under Labour Brexit.

As it stands Labour will allow a softened Tory Brexit by enablement. I personally don't see that changing unless something breaks. There isn't an incentive to break it before Brexit. May has the job no one else really wants right now. That's the reason she's the zombie PM as it is.

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2017 01:55

And leave the way open for the return of Farage?

You seen the approval figures in Farage lately? And how they have plummeted. Farage was always marmite as it was. He's a busted flush.

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OlennasWimple · 01/07/2017 02:13

Red - I agree with everything you have just said.

So, to slightly misquote Richard Mottram, the only conclusion I can reach is "We're all fucked. I'm fucked. You're fucked. The whole [country] is fucked. It's the biggest cock-up ever. We're all completely fucked."

OlennasWimple · 01/07/2017 02:15

On central government involvement in local councils, I'm aware that DCLG have sent in commissioners to Tower Hamlets re their finance functions and Birmingham re social services, but are there any other councils in England in this position at the moment?

OlennasWimple · 01/07/2017 04:30

An interesting Reddit AMA ("Ask Me Anything" - ie a webchat) with two journalists from the NY Times who are working on Grenfell here

mathanxiety · 01/07/2017 05:16

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/northern-ireland/news/87055/dup-mp-goads-sinn-fein-over-tory-pact-stormont-talks

DUP MP goads Sinn Fein over Tory pact as Stormont talks on knife-edge

“Before the Election [Sinn Fein] repeatedly tried to defend their abstentionist policy by asking ‘Name one thing that has been achieved by the taking of seats in Westminster?’,” he said.
'Unionist firebrand Gregory Campbell':
“Up to 1.5 billion extra of these, that's what. If they don't get it I'll spell it out v e r r y s l o w l y........

“Up to ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED MILLION POUNDS EXTRA. Now, do the 'nasty Tories' through Direct Rule caused by you SF, decide how to spend this, or do we? Your call.”

He is threatening a return to the old days of exclusion of Catholics from economic opportunity. They really are a shameless bunch of parasites.

mathanxiety · 01/07/2017 06:24

There is a lot of pressure on SF to sort out Stormont because otherwise they risk being blamed for depriving NI of the decision making on spending the money - I don't think the money is dependent on the restoration of power sharing?
(Howabout)

You are correct, Howabout, and no doubt if that was ever on the agenda, Arlene Foster just folded her arms and said 'No' and Theresa May said 'Ok'.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-how-many-voters-want-powersharing-restored-in-northern-ireland-35870043.html
I do not think there is that much pressure on SF to come to any old agreement to get Stormont up and running again. The world is a much larger place than the DUP perhaps realises, and they have few friends anywhere but in the 1922 Committee and certain scary little enclaves in South Africa, whereas SF and the nationalist cause in general have friends in places that actually matter.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-how-many-sinn-fein-supporters-back-westminster-abstention-policy-35869874.html
The policy of abstention from taking seats in Westminster is also very popular.

As seen in the goading I posted earlier, the DUP can't resist indulging in displays of contempt/ the throwing of pennies over the ramparts at those they believe to be vanquished.

We are just under two weeks from the granddaddy of all opportunities for shooting in the foot, the Eleventh/Twelfth of July. I sincerely hope the world's press will be out in force to record it all.

I wonder if they'll be setting fire to Polish flags on top of the huge bonfires that are an integral part of the celebrations, as they have done in the past, and terrifying the Polish renters who have made their homes in low cost rental housing in loyalist areas. The Polish embassies in London and Dublin will be paying close attention. Poland has announced that plans are well afoot to establish a permanent consulate in NI.

Sostenueto · 01/07/2017 08:35

Is SF just posturing a lot? Wouldn't it be in their interests to come to agreement so the 1 billion can be spent on what they want instead of being under direct rule where they won't have a choice?

BiglyBadgers · 01/07/2017 08:41

On the labour Brexit business I am with Valentine. I think Starmer's list is good because it is not at all saying labour would deliver a unicorn brexit. It is saying that this is what the Tories have promised. They must now produce something that meets those promises or we should not accept that deal. This is an actual, real open door to actually getting out of brexit with clear simple aims that people can understand and agree on.

As much as I understand your frustration with the baby steps pace, sometimes you have to take things slowly and not play your hand too soon. I spend a lot of my job trying to persuade people to do things they don't want to do, usually things that cost money and take more time then people would like, this softly softly approach mirrors techniques I have found to be most success with intransigent people in situations where I do not hold the power. You give them measures they can't not agree to, but you know will not be met with their plans, then you wait until they are forced to realise it too and then you give them the alternative. If I go straight in and tell them they are wrong I just get chucked off the project and nobody will listen to me (said from bitter experience).

On the Corbyn side I actually agree with a post red put up yesterday saying that Corbyn actually has no strong interest one way or another on Brexit and sees it as a distraction from dealing with austerity. This is his real passion and I don't think he has any particular plans on Brexit or is the one who is going to save us. Starmer however is one of the few people I would vaguely trust to deal with this brexit mess.

BiglyBadgers · 01/07/2017 08:47

Did anyone else here the K&C councillor on R4 this morning. It was like she made a serious effort to say all the worst possible things she could think off.

She stated clearly that they wanted the meeting private because they were afraid of riots, but did not acknowledge that this was not a reason for banning the press. She blamed the press for stirring trouble by going to court for access and for reporting all the bad stuff and not any of the damaging things they have apparently been doing.

She said the crowds who stormed the council building the other week weren't locals, but external trouble makers because all the locals apparently really love them and they have the bestest relationship with them all.

She said it was unreasonable to expect a local council to have plans for this sort of event (despite the fact I know full well many do have emergency plans for just this sort of thing).

It was seriously Shock It made me embarrassed to work in local government.

BiglyBadgers · 01/07/2017 08:48

Bah! Telling slip on the autocorrect....damaging = amazing. Even my tablet doesn't believe it. Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 01/07/2017 08:49

Is SF just posturing a lot? Wouldn't it be in their interests to come to agreement so the 1 billion can be spent on what they want instead of being under direct rule where they won't have a choice?
There are far bigger problems in NI than how to spend that money. Not least to say if that pressure happens then Westminster fails the honest broker test.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 08:53

If I go straight in and tell them they are wrong I just get chucked off the project and nobody will listen to me (said from bitter experience

On these threads, it's been interesting to see this with some who claim to want 'brexit'.

'Brexiteers' have tasted the forbidden fruit.
I wonder if they'll be setting fire to Polish flags on top of the huge bonfires that are an integral part of the celebrations Shock,
And their fellow travellers have been incited to want more.

On red's 'dealer' metaphor, Labour has to do the de tox somehow. Think and hope your strategies will have to be put in to practice in labour party, bigly and what you said valentine.

BiglyBadgers · 01/07/2017 09:20

I'm not counting any chickens woman. I wouldn't even go as far as to say I am in the least bit confident, but Starmer's list has given me a glimmer of hope somewhere in the darkness.

I do really worry about the marching season in NI. I just hope it doesn't go back to the bad old days of riots every season, it is seeming increasingly likely though. Sad

PattyPenguin · 01/07/2017 09:24

Re commisioners overseeing the overall running of a council... It may not have happened in England, but it has in Wales, in 2011, when the Welsh local government minister appointed commissioners to take over the functions of the cabinet of Anglesey county council.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 09:24

It is such a mess, and so unnecessary. The ukips look to have destroyed so much, for the moment.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 09:28

I don't know the constitutional ins and outs, but ever since the successes of Sheffield City Council in the 1980s and the GLC, tories have sought to undermine the power of LAs. The schools academy programme was what was going on to get rid of LEAs too.

Grenfell is what happens when you f about with properly funded and accountable local governance and health and safety officers.

HesterThrale · 01/07/2017 09:59

The Govt petitions site has not reopened yet. Do they fear a groundswell of opinionated petitions?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions?state=open