Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

[RedToothBrush]

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

Sos oh yes. It can be truly enriching for sure. Our group has supported each other through life threatening illness and sadly death and we can express things to each other we would not even say to our families. We came together as a result of illness and bonded over a black sense of humour that would see us expelled from more traditional support groups and forums but as it turns out there is of course a lot more to life and we too talk daily and meet ups are always erm lively....... We are mostly UK and NI but also Europe and from all different backgrounds but have in common that we are inclusive and all so grateful we found each other.

Agreed it is a double edged sword but I still think that you will always have people prepared to hide behind anonymity on social media to say and do offensive or attention seeking things they would not in real life. Even on mumsnet, you have the worst as well as the best. Every group has social norms, and that is largely what has kept this thread on the whole civilised and constructive, but other Brexit threads turned into slanging matches and in one case someone filled two and half pages with all out abuse directed at me. That was of course deleted but I have also seen it come close to that without censure.

I think we could all benefit in learning skills of how to engage with other in a way that both defuses situations and how you can change the direction of the debate to one which is more constructive. In the same way that police are taught how to defuse volatile situations in real life, you can do the same online to a certain degree.

We also need to learn new ways to challenge existing beliefs rather than by simply confronting them head on.

People who are more able with their communication skills can dominate and this is also a problem. The duty to try to listen, lies with those who have most power.

Listening is not necessarily to an exact point - but also the sentiment behind it. What drives it, what fuels it. Failure to listen and acknowledge that is often a source of frustration for others. Listening includes offering alternative explanations rather than just talking back at someone saying its bullshit.

Social media encourages you to talk but not necessarily to listen. The criticism of politicians at the moment, is primarily based on failures to listen. Grenfell is the very embodiment of that problem with Theresa May being the ultimate cheer leader.

This is why we are getting social divides which are also along education levels. In part because there isn't enough listening going on in our society.

How can voices and points with value but not necessarily a click bait readership find avenues in which they can compete with all the noise?

There are ways, but we need to be savvy about the way we speak, where we speak and what questions we ask in how we achieve that.

It is a learned skill. Its one that isn't being taught. I do wonder whether it is something that we should try and do more of. Along with teaching people where they can find out crucial information in a better way, teaching them how they can find out their rights in a better way, teaching people how they can use systems to their advantage rather than being totally intimidated by them.

I think we have taken a great many things for granted in terms of knowledge and power and communication and democracy.

For me, this is part of the purpose of this thread. To encourage that type of empowerment. To see what privilege you do have and see how you can use it not just for your own benefit but for others and to try and spread what knowledge of that you have.

This is the potential slow social revolution that can follow the initial technological one, but it needs people to understand that vision and share in it. It requires people to see the problems and work on solutions. Its the boring shit after the excitement of the initial revolution.

In a "you owe me a new keyboard" moment, the Daily Mash nails it:

Firing banknotes out of cannons into Channel ‘cheaper than Brexit’, say experts

Still trailing you guys, but 'politically homeless remain socialists' describes me perfectly. Feels pretty crap right now.

It is a learned skill. Its one that isn't being taught. I do wonder whether it is something that we should try and do more of.

The problem is the UK seems to have evolved a culture where learning, achievement and knowledge are viewed with deep suspicion. Just look how Goves asinine "we've had enough of experts" was picked up as a lifestyle mantra rather than the ironic aside it was (hopefully) meant to be.

Now historically, when learning was more rarified, and esoteric, a healthy cynicism might have been a survival skill for the wider population. I'm sure there are Restoration Comedies that poke fun at learned men.

It's interesting how quickly and how relatively well immigrants to the UK did in the 60s and 70s, unencumbered by such a cultural millstone.

My personal memories of school were that the popular kids were never the academically gifted ones, but the "lark about" types. Certainly for boys. Which I also recall was a source of exasperation for quite a few girls. Which leads into a debate about education, and segregation.

Writ large, it's what we still do - as a (non existent) society. We generally lionise people for everything but their academic achievements.

Discuss .

Education now is definitely attuned just for the top 20%. Especially with the advent of the new GCSEs. Those that are below or on the border of a 4/5 or the old C are being left behind even more now. My gdd in that top 20% will be fine, my ggs who is in the bottom 20% will not be.

Lurking I've seen your type at Chislehurst caves
I feel slightly optimistic today. My DPs are in their 70's and card carrying Tories, they canvass for them and my DP was a Tory councillor for many years. We declared a ban on discussing politics years ago as it just resulted in so much bad feeling.
I spoke to my DM last night and we somehow got onto politics and she admitted that Theresa May is useless, she's not happy about the cosying up to the DUP, she thinks they have moved too far to the right and wouldn't vote for them if there was an election now. If she can turn against them, I'm sure that others are open to persuasion.

Glad to hear your gdd is enjoying An Inspector Calls sos. I'm amazed it's still allowed!

Inspector's speech ( after death of Eva Smith due to cruelty of capitalism).

'But just remember this. One Eva Smith has gone – but there are millions and millions of Eva Smiths and John Smiths still left with us, with their lives, their hopes and fears, their suffering and chance of happiness, all intertwined with our lives, with what we think and say and do. We don’t live alone. We are members of one body. We are responsible for each other. And I tell you that the time will soon come when, if men will not learn that lesson, then they will be taught it in fire and blood and anguish. Good night.’

I'm jealous of your forest adventures.

And agree whole heartedly with what you've posted about social media, everyone. I avoided social media until November 8th 2016, when there seemed no other option.

LH Anthony Burgess, for example, a writer, thinker, opera writer and intellectual was awarded for his achievements in France but not in England.

This is a philistine island. I used think that was quite sweet, now I find it terrifying.

Lurking - was your new Labour MP one of those who rebelled and voted for the Chuka Umunna amendment yesterday? My newly elected Labour MP (who stood on a very pro-Remain ticket) went with the whips. I'll write to ask why this was but I'm feeling pretty let down.

The cartoon depiction of May that always annoys me is the exaggeration of her nose. I know cartoonists take main features and amplify them, and May does have a prominent nose, and I know some such as Gerald Scarfe, do this to everyone. But....it still feels very "witchy", which is one of age old accusations to throw at women, particularly those with some power.

As a slight aside, does anyone know of any female political cartoonists? I was trying to see how they portrayed May, but can't think of any...

Education now is definitely attuned just for the top 20%

See I would dispute that. Yes true to a certain extent, but I would instead say that education is pitched at a particular band of ability within individual schools. If you fall above or below that band you don't necessarily get the right education for your particular needs. This is because schools still teach to the classes.

If you are in the top 20% for your school you can still not fulfil your full potential if you happen to be at the very top end of that and there is a gap from you to your next nearest peers. Its particularly true if those kids are in schools where the average is lower than in schools in affluent and 'better' areas.

It comes down to resources. The most able are more likely to get left to their own devices if they are hitting the targets, rather than being stretched as that's extra 'unnecessary' work for teachers.

There are of course lots of exceptions to this and some teachers really do try and help their best students, but there isn't really a culture to encourage it across the board.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/thoughts-complex-journalists-says-emmanuel-macron/
My thoughts are 'too complex' for journalists, says Emmanuel Macron

Well that's a new one...

Emmanuel Macron has sparked anger and mockery for dispensing with the French president’s traditional Bastille Day television interview because his thoughts are “too complex” for such a forum.

An Elysée official told Le Monde newspaper that the 39-year-old centrist leader’s "complex thought process lends itself badly to the game of question-and-answer with journalists” that is held every year on the July 14 national holiday.

Mr Macron has given just one interview to the press - to a group of European journalists and France’s Le Figaro newspaper - since he was elected last month after a meteoric rise in just one year to from relative obscurity to the pinnacle of power.

Now he is shunning the TV interview French presidents usually hold on Bastille Day after attending the military parade on the Champs Elysées, which this year will include US President Donald Trump among its spectators.

I'm not sure what to make of this. This, on the face of it, is exactly what Trump and May are guilty of. It suggests a lack of accountability...

...it depends on whether this is a criticism of the press over soundbites, which might well be fair comment...

...however I find it troubling and illiberal. Politicians have a duty in democracies to be answerable to the press.

Eye brow is firmly raised.

I agree in relation to needing to give people critical thinking and listening skills, as well as understanding as a society much better the implications of technology for our democratic and governing processes. I am not sure I agree that it is because this country does not value education though, given that the "elite" is so strongly determined by a narrow form of educational attainment, and certain channels through which it is delivered, something Gove himself has consolidated. I know teachers who are tearing their hair out trying to find ways to motivate pupils like Sos's grandson who are not going to be academic in the narrow sense it is being defined. Ironically it is the so called "soft" subjects like media studies that actually directly address the issues more than the traditional academic ones though all the humanities , which are increasingly devalued in favour of STEM, have plenty of lessons too.

I am not sure it is so much the value put on education in that narrow sense so much as wider cultural factors that account for May and co not listening, the disdain for those not educated in their narrow sense, for those who work in trade and business rather than the professions (which they count politician as one) and above all a sense of entitlement and illusions of superiority forged from those attitudes. It is not so much that they can't listen as they do not see the need to. Those cultural factors in turn generate resentment amongst those that are not listened to and that provides politicians with emotions that they can manipulate. One of the worries about the current political scene is that incompetent muppets as May, Trump etc are, a really clever charismatic politician with those skills could wreak havoc

As far as cool kids are concerned I think that is a red herring because parenting a child who is "different" has clarified for me that those cool kids in school are often attention seekers with issues of their own who are good at manipulating teenagers at a stage in their development where they are petrified of being different. They therefore manipulate the group norms, now aided by social media, to direct all the attention on to themselves as the epitome of how you should be and to exclude those that are different. It can be geekiness and educational attainment but also a refusal to indulge in sexual excess and binge drinking, or simply refusing to join in the excluding, all amplified by social media. These skills become less effective and their influence wains as their peers mature and embrace individual identitiy, they are rarely the ones who make the greatest success of their lives. So it was at my school and so it has proved with my DDs.

I have worked with many bright people who did not have a traditional academic background. There was a stage in my career where I regularly worked with a partner as a facilitator helping Boards to develop their strategies, medium and large enterprises like transport companies, publishers, manufacturers. A surprising number of CEOs and Board Members are barely literate, certainly out of proportion to other senior positions in the professions. Richard Branson is of course a classic example. That is not to say they are not extremely clever though, and with a particular talent for seeing issues holistically. I think we can safely say May is deep down in the detail with no clue about the overall strategy beyond platitudes. I also worked in organisations where people could and did progress through the management structure from the bottom up, again some very bright people with lots of skills, some of the brightest frustrated by the management structure progressed via the trade unions. Bright people can and do get on without the benefit of a traditional education.

The state Schools I know, inner city schools as well as leafy comprehensives were doing a better job than ever of raising aspirations and attainment for the less traditionally academically able and in providing an education in the wider sense. They still aim to do that in spite of the 50s strait jacket that has been inflicted on them by this government.

The issue is not so much the value put on education as what an education system that is fit for purpose in the 21st century looks like, and it is not one that accords with Gove's vision.

Woman12345 that is the speech my gdd quoted to me last night over phone! Yes she is doing Romeo and Juliet too which she is a tad disappointed because she wanted to do Macbeth! Today she did a mock eng lit. 15 poems plus books all closed book. She has had to memorise at least 70 quotes from poems. A 2 hr 15 min exam but only a years work done on syllabus. Felt sorry for this years year 11 who were guinea pigs for Goves new standards. And I think I got you in those caves LH! It was a 3 pronged attack

Whatwouldrondo Did you know that those children from state comprehensives in Kent who sat the 11 plus were told by the grammar schools not to have private coaching for the critical thinking paper because they wanted to judge them properly while the private educated children continued to have tutoring for it anyway. Now tell me how many of those state comprehensive children passed that 11 plus?

My ggs was diagnosed with a working memory problem. He used to receive 80% SEN in his high school and in 2 years had jumped 4 years in development and was gradually catching up. Though he would never have made it passed a level 4 he would have achieved that. Last year His SEN was reduced to 15% because the school could not fund his 80% because of the influx of non English speaking children who had priority over him as they did not speak English. He will never attain a 4 now and he is starting a new technical school in September because he cannot do any options ( he's in year 9) because he is so behind. He has no choice but go to a tech school to see if he can do practical work. He did not want to go, but it is his only option. We do not blame the immigrant children as they are entitled to an education. We blame the government who under funds schools for SEN and then order the schools to make sure non English speaking children are prioritized.
We are reasonable people who think all are equal so as I said not a problem over immigrants. But there are a lot of people out there that probably voted for brexit for similar reasons as I explained.

Also a lot of children are encouraged to go to tech who are not as bright. My ggs was given a leaflet about the new tech school 20 miles away with a letter saying it could be a better option for him. He wasn't the only one to get the letter but it was low achievers that got it. It makes you wonder whether schools are 'disappearing' children this way just to make their status look better?

Sos The fairness of Grammar School admissions tests, where do you start?

Do you mean the verbal and non verbal reasoning papers? I am not aware of any Grammars who do not base admissions on VR and NVR with perhaps added tests of Maths and English. They have to use tests that can, as far as possible, be marked objectively so there is no element of subjective judgement that can be challenged at appeal or in court. They are not critical thinking papers, they are designed to test the native ability to reason and if properly developed with unpredictable questions they cannot be prepared for beyond becoming familiar with the format via a handful of papers. They are tests of ability not attainment, in fact they are also used to for diagnosing learning difficulties, to identify whether a child is not achieving their potential if attainment is not matching ability. The educational and occupational Psychologists who develop them , they are used in selection for jobs too, spend a lot of time making sure the scores cannot be increased by practise. All Grammar Schools tell all applicants not to practise for that reason, and it is also unlikely that doing a test a week for a few months as they do in Prep Schools makes much difference.

Except that quite clearly tutors have worked out ways to help those who would be at the margin of the required mark, because those who are genuinely in the top of the ability range will exceed that mark anyway, and they do so by continued practise of certain questions. Hours of it over years. No educational value whatsoever, they even had to introduce tests of Maths and English because pupils were arriving who were way behind in the skills that actually matter. And once there the pupils go on being tutored at every stage. Around here it is a racket that amounts in my opinion to child abuse and it has also skewed the socio demographic / ethnic profiles of the schools towards those parents prepared to put their child through that, and actually most are from state schools. It may be that the schools don't invest enough in the tests as well so they do have predictable questions.

However the genuinely bright children in Kent state schools would be able to pass the test without much practise, the schools were correct in that, and as I say it would not make much difference at the intensity they prepare in private schools.

Re Macron
Inwould be careful about anythingnyou can read about him atm as he is some 'issues' with journalists atm
Basically his predecessor has the door wide open so journalists were aware about anything and everything. Macron has taken the opposite attitude saying that he will only tell people what he wants to tell them, doesn't want journalists in the 'Elysee' all the time etc.
He even has the ministers arriving directly in front of the door rather that the end of the court yard so they go in straight away - no discussion with journalists.
He wants to be in control of what is said to journalists (plenty of issues during the campaign) rather than them being in control of the situation iyswim.
So they are grumpy.

Education now is definitely attuned just for the top 20%

Tbh it's absolutely not my experience with my two dcs.
On the contrary being right at the top is met with put downs, name calling etc (incl being a 'stupid nerd', irony not being lost there...). And don't even talk about saying you have aspirations such as going into oxbridge etc... That's from a good school in a relatively affluent area. (And no grammar school so the best children are still in normal state secondary)

I fully agree with RTB that knowledge isn't seen as good thing but rather with suspicion. Even more so for 'academic' knowledge. Ive even had people put down Durham university because of that!

Teaching is also about ensuring the right amount of children pass a certain level. If the teenager is over let's say a level 4, they are not likely to get support to move from let's say level 7 to 8 because it won't change their stats. And it's the stats that are important...

LH Anthony Burgess, for example, a writer, thinker, opera writer and intellectual was awarded for his achievements in France but not in England.

"A Clockwork Orange" is a modern classic, and the English subtitles to "Cyrano" are a masterpiece of translation - keeping the English rhyming to match the original French rhyming :)

I seem to recall he had little time for Thatcher ?

Just got back from having a coffee with DS. He's got an interesting job with people from everywhere. As we were driving back, his phone was going non stop, and he had a call from a French colleague and an Italian one. So there were 3 languages being rattled around as we drove as I help him chat a bit, and said "hello" (at his insistence). Quite aside from a stark illustration of how it is today, I was enjoying the fact that Farage et al would hate it.

Lurking - was your new Labour MP one of those who rebelled and voted for the Chuka Umunna amendment yesterday?

Didn't vote

Sos part of the reason I know about these tests is that we are a dyslexic family. It is an irony that we all pass the VR and NVR tests for Grammar Schools but then of course they have no idea what to do with you (especially back in the 70s) Yes to family members being sidelined to tech schools and apprenticeships, but that has been going on for decades....

I thought it was improving, all the younger generation have proper diagnoses and we know how to get the right help, including extra time in exams, and indeed giving it at home. Then Gove came along and had to please the Daily Mail line that too many were getting help (as opposed to more being diagnosed) Now the exam regs only give extra time in the bottom 14 % for working memory, processing and writing speed regardless of ability So you can be very clever indeed but have working memory processing and speed of writing in the bottom 20% and it is no longer considered that you need the playing field levelled in a time constrained exam...... And I know of many bright pupils with SpLDs who are effectively ignored because they have other pupils with worse problems.

The only consolation is that actually dyslexics are overepresented in many areas of attainment in real life.......

^EU states start to examine whether UK is likely to reverse Brexit
Ambassadors review likelihood of reversal despite many concluding no foreseeable scenario exists to allow for such a move^

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/30/eu-states-examine-whether-uk-likely-reverse-brexit

Good luck to your gdd, sos. The new GCSEs are problematic but a nice money spinner for Gove, Murdoch and Pearson publishing group.

Sounds like she'll do brilliantly!

I think in a bog standard comp the top 5% will fly regardless. The children who are on the cusp of a grade C in subjects like English and Maths will get extra help to push them over the line, but the children who are on the B/A grade line might not.