Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

[RedToothBrush]

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

woman Yes, we need more talented, strong women in power
Fewer incompetent, weak and wobbly ones
Or xenophobes

It's interesting that having been such a rebel himself - voting 500 times or whatever against the instructions of the then Labour leaders - now he is leader himself he is very intolerant of dissent.

While I agree I don't think this was the right approach, to be fair he rebelled as a back bench MP, which is very different to someone in cabinet going against the party line. Second, considering the history of rebellion against him I don't think it is hard to understand why he may be trying to exert some control.

In fact the more I consider this amendment the more annoyed I am at Chukka for doing it. I am afraid I just don't see this 'acting on his conscious' white knight narrative at all.

1. This was never going to pass, not a hope in hell, and he knew this.
2. It is not part of the labour manifesto, so Corbyn really was not in a position to support it. Abstaining was the best he could do in the circumstances when he had a policy of going with Brexit, but with options open.
3. This was absolutely going to split opinion in the party and cause issues when wounds are barely healing from before the election. Again Chukka can't have failed to realise this would play on the divided labour narrativeand the press would grab it with wide open arms.
4. It will now be much, much harder for labour to put this option back on the table at a time when it is looking more likely to get some cross party support (I hope that time will come as the brexit negotiations shitshow continues) as it will be seen as a U-turn from Corbyn.

So all he has achieved is to cause a whole new rift in his own party and make it harder for labour to have this conversation in future. The sensible thing to do would have been to table something a bit more vague that supported the labour manifesto. Something around having explicit measures to prioritise a strong economy and employment with some key figures in there. Then when it was clear these could not be met work to change labour policy during conference and also gain cross party support for staying in the single market.

To be honest I am bloody disappointed in him. I really thought he was smarter than this.

But oh look, everyone can say what a super remainer Chukka is and how is is all on our side. It seems to me that this amendment was far more about promoting Chukka Umunna than actually helping to soften brexit I'm afraid.

We are witnessing the complete breakdown of democracy as we, in Britain, know it. Our country is getting more like America by the minute. We have a far right government hell bent on ruining this country. We have a corrupt system where poor and working class lives are deemed worthless and cost cutting and profit making is ranked more important. This, my friends is the beginning of the end. We must, MUST, come together if we want to save what decency and dignity is left in this country. Only ALL of us, together as one, can overcome this horrendous situation we find ourselves in. I only wish I had the physical strength to go out and muster the troops. I hope the young do it instead.

The side of the EU we don't hear about: empowering individuals and small businesses struggling against the US multinational giants

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/06/27/british-couple-sparked-googles-battle-europe/

This couple from Berks complained to Brussels about Google misusing its market dominance to squeeze out competitors, like their little startup shopping comparison site

The competition commissioner investigated and this led to the swinging £2.4 billion fine against Google

• that's part of the Brexit budget hole hauled back already !
• with further huge fines within 90 days if Google don't make the necessary changes to its search engine.

No UK govt would dare hammer US multinationals like this.
No UK govt now would even wish to do anything but roll over like a good US poodle.

Bigly, don't rule out a political realignment / new party.

Lurker here -

bigly those are my thoughts exactly.

Umunna is kicking himself for withdrawing from the leadership and is attempting to promote himself again, but I am not convinced it is a terribly sensible way to do it.

far more about promoting Chukka Umunna is what I thought too, bigly. Until DD brings back his cake from the EU, labour would be wise to act flexibly till they get into power and kick brexit way into the long grass. And issue every one with blue picnic basket smith passports.

You could be right red. I figure this is self promotion to either lead his new shiny party or with the hope of grabbing labour off Corbyn again in future.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that, bigly
at least about JC's response, which just turned a maybe unwise amendment into a very public split

We've seen before that cabinet and shadow cabinet members have been allowed to dissent occasionally, on matters where they feel very strongly

Chukka'd get the PLP, but I wonder if he'd get the national labour vote. But there are so many politically homeless remain socialists.
Would lib/dems vote for a Chukka party?

Exactly woman. Sometimes the way to get what you want is to bide your time and wait for the right moment. This was too early.

I'm not a chukka fan since he stood down in the last leadership race. He's very ambitious and because now it looks like Labour are in with a shout I think he thinks he should be the leader. I don't trust anyone who puts their personal ambition ahead of the country.

I think we agree about JCs response to a degree choc. I just have more sympathy for him as I think having half your cabinet walk out on you and act to trigger a second leadership election is bound to make any leader a bit twitchy. I just also think Chukka was an idiot to put the amendment forward in the first place and that he did so knowing full well it would damage the party.

Hmm...I think they might woman. Maybe he could jump over the to lib Dems, I hear they are in need of a leader right now.

I agree Labour should be staying neutral, keeping its options open and avoiding giving offence to either Remain or Leave

That's why JC should NOT at this stage have any 3-line whips on Brexit, when a good chunk of the PLP disagrees with his policy on the specific vote
(and remember ⅔ of Labour voters and iirc more than ⅔ of its members were Remain)

If a Labour figure strays from neutrality - whether for Leave or Remain - JC should minimise the fuss and just move on to other business

Which is precisely what I said in a post earlier. Corbyn should have let them vote as they wished on this one in my view, but made clear he was abstaining and why. See we do agree on it really bigchoc...I just think Chukka is equally culpable and knew exactly what the effect of his amendment on the party would be.

That is purely trying to look at it from Labour's party political viewpoint.

As far as the national interest goes, Labour should already be trying to form a crossparty alliance to block a cliff edge Brexit

If they leave it until a hard Brexit deal is imminent, it will be far too late to organize effectively

And even if Corbyn hadn't whipped it I still think it would have caused a split in the party considering the terrible state it is in anyway. Remember the labour party is not in a healthy place, however much they may have put a good front on for the election. They still basically hate each other. It would have been better is chukka had left well alone in the first place. He was never going to do any good with this proposal at this time.

I have heard lots of stuff on Twitter about behind the scenes talks between all parties. If they are happening I wouldn't expect anyone to be shouting it from the rooftops though.

What worries me about JC is that he either
shares the "cake and eat it" delusion of the Tory hardliners / Brexit Ultras that the UK can get a tailor made deal
or actively wants a disastrous Brexit, for electoral reasons

There are almost certainly only 2 possible Brexit options that the EU will, or even can, allow:

1. no deal - WTO / cliff edge = the A50 default
2. EEA / EFTA = accepting ECJ and FOM (but actually using and enforcing the allowed restrictions)

Retaining the Single market means option 2)

.

Bigly,, I agree too re CU. Wrong timing again. He's clearly talented and could be a vote winner if he puts the party before personal ambition.

Now I don't pretend to know what's in Corbyn's head and I am not suggesting this is what he is doing, but I see only one possible route out of this brexit mess and that is a carefully timed plan of steady change to public opinion and ramping up the reduction in Brexit accordingly.

I don't think we will realistically go from hard Brexit to soft over night. It is just not going to happen. Yes it seems obvious to us, but the wheels of governance can turn slowly and it will take time. However, prioritising the economy and jobs is the first step to allowing a real discussion of whether it is working or not to take place as they give an actual measurement to compare against. But until negotiations provide something real or it gets to the point it is obvious nothing will be forthcoming conservatives can just keep saying they will make the best deal ever and win all the magic unicorns.

So, yes we have to keep the pressure up, but I want the remainers in Government to be a little be smarter and do something that actually has a chance of causing real change. This means they have to wait a bit before they get serious. They have to maintain their integrity and let the Tories fail to some degree before they can step in and point out the deal is shit. Then they can put forward a better one. If they keep doing it now they just shoot their loads too bloody soon, which just allows the conservatives to paint them as unpatriotic saboteurs and does nobody any good at all.

Agree,bigly ^ 'Timing is all'.

I hope you're right Bigly.

I think we may well get to the point where everyone realises a hard brexit - nah scrap that, any brexit - is a bad idea. We are not there yet. At the minute all Labour have to do is keep their powder dry whilst applying pressure.

It's a question of whether the tories can run out the clock. Terrifying.