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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 19:44

They must be trying their hardest to make the worst possible choices, surely? No one can be that oblivious for the need for transparency and accountability and to just how damaging this stance is.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:47

This is so unbelievable! WTF?! Well it is clear something really stinks with Kensington and Chelsea council. Get the fraud squad in! Get MI6 in! Arrest them all! This makes Game of Thrones look like a children's programme. Jon Snow you know nothing! (Drains icecream strawberry shake). Angry

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 19:47

Note the meeting was announced as being behind closed doors to prevent interruption / disturbance from public. Then gets called off because press turn up and they say after legal advice it might prejudice the public inquiry.

Spectacular.

Gareth Davies‏*@Gareth*_Davies09
I'd suggest repairing @RBKC's reputation should be the last thing on @NickPagetBrown1's mind

Even more spectacular that the council's reputation is his priority.

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Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:50

Oh they so much want to save their precious skins. Ramsey Bolton wtf are you?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 19:50

Howabout As a centrist Remainer - open to all moderate parties - I personally would never again consider voting Labour if they had not stood up for an EEA / EFTA type deal.
(I wonder if any govt will give expats the right to vote after 15 years absence. If so, that would be lifelong Anyone But Labour for me)

If they put FOM and ECJ ahead of such a deal, then that would be breaching the fundamental principles that I have always assumed Labour had.
It is the kind of betrayal of principals that I would never forgive and would forever punish.

Of course, most hardcore / tribal Labour voters would forgive
Depends whether they can win with their core and the Anyone But Tory vote, or if they first need Brexit to bring a recession.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:53

I think it says it all Red. I cannot believe this is happening here. Those poor people of Grenfell. My heart bleeds for them. I am ashamed to be British. Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 19:53

Good news is that the media are defending the public interest for once.
Bad news is that Kensington council seem to have seceded from the UK

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 19:54

If the council are this desperate, I have to wonder if there is some deep dark secret they are trying to hide
Have they been taking bungs ?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 19:56

Surely no politicians would be that stupid and ruin their reputation, unless they are desperately hiding some pretty dreadful scandal

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:56

Bigchoc I may never ever vote again. But I really knew deep down JC wanted to leave EU completely. Words fail me now on all counts.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:58

Yes they are a corrupt council Bigchoc it was obvious when they didn't show up at Grenfell.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 19:58

Yes they are a corrupt council Bigchoc it was obvious when they didn't show up at Grenfell.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 20:03

They are culpable for Grenfell and they know it.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 20:08

I hope thousands demonstrate now in light of all this. I hope that demonstrations stop this government in its tracks. (Peaceful ones mind not violent). I hope people march across the country for the people of grenfell, for austerity, for women's rights, for all oppressive laws. I want to see the rise of the common people for all the injustices. (Men in white coats now here)/SmileAngry

ClashCityRocker · 29/06/2017 20:12

What was the point in putting forward the single market amendment? Chaka Khan must have known it wouldn't go through and it would just make the Labour party look divided.

And grenfall. Words fail me.

ClashCityRocker · 29/06/2017 20:13

Chaka Khan?! Ffs my phone!

Peregrina · 29/06/2017 20:14

Of course, it's more than ironic for journalists to howl about being barred from meetings reporters barely ever attended in the past
Scrutiny extends far beyond this one meeting, and it's clear there hasn't been any of @RBKC** for a long, long time

At one time, when their were local papers worthy of the name, that's exactly what cub reporters did.

A lot of councils are cosy little clubs with the same people returned unopposed each time because no one bothers to put up for the council. It's a bit chicken and egg because people are turned off by the little cliques involved, but they become cliques because no one stands against them. The remedy is in our own hands - stand for the local councils, force them at least to get out canvassing for their seats. Stand as an Independent if you don't feel aligned to any one party but have issues you feel strongly about.

ClashCityRocker · 29/06/2017 20:15

Chukka umanna.

Although I quite like the idea of chaka Khan being an mp...

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 20:16

You couldn't make it up. Oh what a wicked, selfish, greedy world we live in.

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 20:18

I love Chaka Khan, Smile

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 20:19

Paragraph from the Buzzfeed article about RBKC meeting fiasco.

A Downing Street spokesperson said: “We have been clear that we want all parties involved to be as open and transparent as possible, both with residents and the wider public to ensure full confidence in the response effort. We would encourage everyone involved to respect this wherever possible.”

Sounds like they want things open and transparent which makes RBKC look even more nuts.

At what point do we get to this?

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woman12345 · 29/06/2017 20:23

Martha Reeves served as a rep on Detroit City council 2005-9.

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 20:24

At what point do we get to this?

About 2 years ago.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 20:27

A lot of councils are cosy little clubs with the same people returned unopposed each time because no one bothers to put up for the council. It's a bit chicken and egg because people are turned off by the little cliques involved, but they become cliques because no one stands against them. The remedy is in our own hands - stand for the local councils, force them at least to get out canvassing for their seats. Stand as an Independent if you don't feel aligned to any one party but have issues you feel strongly about.

Peregina, you have no idea how much that rings true... sigh. Just hearing local shit...

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 20:29

The amendment was a signal, to encourage MPs from all parties to fight for a soft Brexit, not just to accept the Tory hardline.
It needn't have caused a Labour split, because an opposition party has a lot more latitude for differing opinions than a govt

JC made it a big issue with his 3-line whip, instead of stating the official Labour line and then letting MPs vote according to conscience.

It's interesting that having been such a rebel himself - voting 500 times or whatever against the instructions of the then Labour leaders - now he is leader himself he is very intolerant of dissent.

From rebel to control freak in such a short time.
Maybe the Glastonbury chanting has gone to his head

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