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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 21:55

Phew, I'm off to bed. I have a funeral to go to tomorrow, which may account for my increased rant levels tonight. Goodnight all. Smile

OlennasWimple · 29/06/2017 21:55

Fantastic news re Stella Creasey's campaigning

When will DCLG pull their finger out and start flexing their powers in relation to RBKC?

Chukka is clearly playing the long game.

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 21:55

It is a bit like playing chicken with an express train isn't it crash Confused

annandale · 29/06/2017 21:56

Anyone else watching the Brexit Shorts on the grauniad website? I think they are great. I loved The Pines, thought it was extremely pithy, and Penelope Wilton is just a genius in The End.

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 21:59

Flowers for tomorrow bigly imagine how we would have felt with a tory landslide, though. Terrifying as it is, it could have been ...........

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 29/06/2017 22:00

So glad this thread is here. Life is stupidly busy at the moment, it's good to catch up here.

I think you are right about the timing bigley hope the funeral goes we'll tomorrow Flowers

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 22:03

Robert Wright‏*@RKWinvisibleman*
Council meetings like this are critical for reporters. Crucial we can hear leaders held to account in place where we have legal privilege.
Staggering to think @RBKC now plans to do w/o a cabinet meeting until September after this horror.

SEPTEMBER!

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woman12345 · 29/06/2017 22:11

SEPTEMBER! It's getting a bit Trumpy.

missmoon · 29/06/2017 22:14

"Would lib/dems vote for a Chukka party?"

I wouldn't! I don't trust him, always changing his position. I don't trust Jeremy Corbyn either, but at least he's consistent.

HardcoreLadyType · 29/06/2017 22:28

Gary Lineker has commented on Twitter today that he would like a centrist party to support.

A few people have suggested he leads it, and have suggested names such as En Marche of the Day and Centre Forward.

VulvalHeadMistress · 29/06/2017 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 23:31

Yes, Tory policy - May and DD are currently heading for going over the cliff edge Brexit.
Likely consequences:

No trade deals with anyone, Year Zero, economic recession
Several years negotiating trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world
Blocked from the WTO by Argentina and every other country with a grudge
SEngland a lorry park, waiting days for exports and food imports
Possibly flights anywhere buggered until the UK quickly does its own deals for flight rights over / into,other countries

Labour's position is very unclear (JC making it up each week according to what political advantage he sees)
He's maybe hoping for cliff edge Brexit, followed by a Labour landslide

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 23:32

Exit from Euratom means no fresh supplies of nuclear fuel, no materials for nuclear medicine
....

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 00:02

Women who stick their head above the parapet seem to be in far more danger than back in the 1970s; those on the left or center seem at particular risk:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/28/man-jailed-for-threatening-to-kill-labour-mp-karin-smyth-bristol-election-campaign

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 00:06

Giles Fraser celebrates what he thinks is the death of centrism in the Uk: Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2017/jun/29/rejoice-centrism-in-british-politics-is-dead-and-big-ideas-are-back

Well, if you want Corbyn/McDonnell, then accept the risk of getting May / DD instead. For several years
And vice versa

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 00:15

I just think Chukka is equally culpable and knew exactly what the effect of his amendment on the party would be.
I don't think he is disillusioned enough to think he can successfully form another party based on his stance on Brexit.
I think it is political grandstanding becaus of a serious lack of political and general incompetence. He seems too full of himself.
I think going very very slow towards public opinion, throwing words like job-saving Brexit, is what Corbyn is doing. It is far more viable politicially than the obvious incompetency and ambition of Chuka. Labour have their Gove sorted alright.

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 00:20

He's maybe hoping for cliff edge Brexit, followed by a Labour landslide
Sorry BigChoc. But the general understanding on social media of Corbyn's position after today looks far more like Bigly's than yours.

HashiAsLarry · 30/06/2017 00:22

I really like chukka. He's stuck to his guns. He did with the nhs amendment, and he did with this.

Country, constituency, party.

However I understand the Labour Party as a whole not buying either. As opposition it suits them to be ambiguous.

OlennasWimple · 30/06/2017 00:35

BigChoc - journalist Helen Lewis said on Twitter yesterday that she doesn't know of a single professional woman who wants to be on Twitter (because of the abuse that they get) but they all feel that they have to be these days, which is a pretty sad indictment

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 01:00

hashi
Chuka said in last September that restricting freedom of movement is the bigger issue here, taking precedent over single market access.
It is dangerously close to what Tories have been saying all along and not what the huge increase of Labour vote indicates.
that is something that is not good for country, constituency or party. It is just incompetency at its best.

Valentine2 · 30/06/2017 01:02

I do like Daniel Zeichner though. He resigned and said he recognises that he shouldn't be a front bencher with this position. That at least says integrity.

DumbledoresApprentice · 30/06/2017 01:08

I don't trust Chuka Umunna at all. I don't think his amendment has anything to do with conscience or principle and as Valentine said he's already said that immigration and FOM are his priority so his commitment to the single market is pretty meaningless as you can't be in it without FOM. Unity in the labour part is important and not just for party political reasons, Important decisions are being made and the opposition needs to be strong and consistent. This is another big, pointless distraction taking attention away from poor government policy.

HashiAsLarry · 30/06/2017 06:39

I think that's a bit unfair on him tbh. He's one of the few who talks about issues with free movement in it's current form and advocates working with the eu on reform.

DumbledoresApprentice · 30/06/2017 06:52

He was pretty clear. He said

“If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn’t remain in the Single Market, but we are not at that point yet.”
In other words his position isn't really any different to the labour leadership. He wants to try and stay in the single market if the EU let us have concessions on free movement. That seems to me to be exactly the same as what the party leadership have been talking about.

HashiAsLarry · 30/06/2017 06:57

OF the free movement we have
Notably not free movement. The quote has a wider context with reform to attempting to secure eu reform.