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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 16:45

That statement from Moore-Bick seems pretty strongly worded. I get the distinct impression he does not approve of the limited scope. It is pretty shocking they have basically ruled out an actual enquiry that would look at the actions of the council preceding the fire. Tory Government letting a Tory council off the hook. Hmm

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 16:49

Well if the government does a u turn on the abortion amendment to appease the DUP there will be absolute uproar as the policies of the DUP will be influential in England as regards abortion and gay marriage etc which the DUP said they would not do.

howabout · 29/06/2017 16:50

The reason I mention Scotland is because it was only recently devolved. There was a lot of unease because of mistrust about our homegrown numpties but on balance sentiment and politics seem to have moved out of the dark ages here. Looked at the other way round it would seem to be completely unacceptable if rUK were to suddenly impose a tightening of the rules on Scottish women and so on that basis I think it should be devolved.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 16:50

I was a little taken aback at all the furore about the inquiry appointee, given Theresas track record of getting the right person for the job....

(tails off into nothingness ....)

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 16:51

Its not Bick himself, its the remit he has been given by the government.

Jo Maugham QC‏*@JolyonMaugham*
For a number of reasons this statement should profoundly alarm those of us who want an effective judicial inquiry. /1
First up, process. One of the purposes of the inquiry must be to begin to heal the psychological wounds of a community that went unheard. /2
For that to happen - for the inquiry to heal rather than harm - the Grenfell community must feel heard and engaged with. /3
For the Government to impose terms of reference rather than consult or negotiate on them is antithetical to real engagement. /4
"You know we ignored your pleas last time? Well, now we're going to ignore them again." is how the Government's conduct will be read. /5
Why is Counsel not being appointed on behalf of residents to negotiate those terms of references before they are announced? /6
It is almost as if Government is deliberately setting out to aggravate division and condemn the inquiry to failure before it even begins. /7
Second, terms. Leave aside the process whereby the terms of reference were arrived at. They are also plain baffling as terms. /8
The terms appear almost deliberately drawn so as to turn a blind eye to some of the key features of this tragedy. /9
Why will the inquiry not examine whether and why fears expressed by residents that the Tower was unsafe were ignored? /10
Why will it not examine whether and how the nature of the relationship between Borough and TMO contributed to any lack of care? /11
Why will it not examine how it came to be that no review of Building Regulations took place after the Lakanal fire? /12
Why will it not examine whether the use of private building inspection regimes has led to a bidding down of safety regimes? /13
These are questions with profound implications for the safety of our housing stock UK - and Government seems not to want answers. /14
So process and the terms of reference appear almost designed to deliver failure both in terms of learning lessons and healing division. /15
Final point. My gut says that the story of Grenfell Tower will come to be one of outsourcing. /16
The outsourcing by Councils who cannot or will not spend money on ensuring it is done properly of work... /17
... to Contractors who know that Councils want that work done on the cheap and so are incentivised not properly to check on it... /18
... and so not they are being invited, quietly, to do it cheaply and poorly. And so we end up with something deeply troubling indeed. /19
What is outsourced is not the doing of vital safety work - but moral and legal responsibility for the failure to do that work. /20
These terms of reference show no interest at all in that profoundly important issue. We should all be very alarmed indeed. /Ends

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LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 16:52

"devolution" seems to be a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose affair. Or at least the way the UK does it.

Incidentally, when will Scotlands tax-raising powers kick in ? Must be soon now, they were promised in 2014, if memory serves.

annandale · 29/06/2017 16:55

Did they learn absolutely nothing from the 30 year rolling thunder shitstorm following tight terms of ref at the Hillsborough inquest? And the multiple dizzyingly expensive number of times the whole diaster has had to be reopened, significantly worsened by those prejudgmental terms of reference?

Why does keep doing this? Why does she dole out little turds one at a time, every time being expensively forced to expel another one? Do it ONCE and get it RIGHT. Apart from anything else, why doesn't she want to share the blame? She is probably right that the 2007 relaxation of building regs is relevant, and it was Labour that promoted tenant management organisations. Take that legal Fybogel, Prime Minister, and do a big satisfying dump that actually clears the colon and prevents faecal soiling/dripfeeding in the future.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 16:57

Simon McKay‏*@simonmckay*

"survivors and victims’ families – will be consulted about the terms of reference" T May, 22 June. Below, chairman on terms of reference:

(see image linked to above)

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 16:59

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Greg Clark thanks @stellacreasy "she's brought an injustice to light, we'll address it" says Govt cant accept amendment asks her to withdraw

Mrsmartell08 · 29/06/2017 17:02

I'm "profoundly alarmed" by a lot of tho be lately....

howabout · 29/06/2017 17:02

LH Scotland has tax raising powers. However if Holyrood uses them they risk instant brain drain.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 17:03

Did they learn absolutely nothing from the 30 year rolling thunder shitstorm following tight terms of ref at the Hillsborough inquest?

They learned very well, and know that stringing things out so long means no one need ever be blamed for anything.

Well, no one important.

whatwouldrondo · 29/06/2017 17:04

BigChoc It was a big shock recently to grandparents to hear their GDD who unlike their others who are already overseas or as a Scientist have already seen their prospects worsen and have very good reasons for wanting to go overseas, saying she would prefer to live in Germany. The prospect of being a millennial in the UK with no apparent prospect of getting on the property ladder or even getting a graduate job outside the big accountancy firms (I have spoken to two London financial services companies in the last two days who are taking no graduates this year), and saddled with £36000 of debt, gives her absolutely no incentive to stay here....... She is very well aware of the contrast with my prospects at the same age at the start of Thatcher's Britain and that my parents inability to help was no barrier. Most of my close friends are from working class backgrounds, and first generation to go to uni, but like Figment ended up successful with decent careers and their own property in their early 20s. Now that sort of mobility is not happening, and whilst we have not said it because we want them to get on with it, I have no doubt that in the end it will be the bank of mum and dad that will step in to give them some chances on a playing field where it is now levelled against those who do not have access to one.....

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 17:04

LH Scotland has tax raising powers. However if Holyrood uses them they risk instant brain drain.

every day is a learning day Smile

are these the extra ones promised by Cameron ?

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 17:04

For the Government they get to refuse to talk about any serious issues around grenfell or take any real action following it as they can use the "waiting for the results of the inquiry" excuse. At the same time they reduce the possibility of any serious consequences for them by making the remit of the inquiry so slim. At absolute most the company who did the refurb work will get into trouble, but the issues with the council and failiure of the Government to ensure adequate safety legislation will not be looked at. Win, win for the conservatives!

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 17:06

Anyone would think May WANTS riots

(She might do, but that's an another story)

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LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 17:07

I know TAAT are bad form, but thanks to these forums there is at least one person who is surprised to learn that ending FoM means for UK citizens too ...

Neatly illustrates the quality of debate we had prior - and since - June last year .

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 17:17

WTF the amendment has been withdrawn on abortion due to cash deal done for funds for NI women to come here for it because DUP will get the hump and not vote for QS?Angry

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 17:18

WTF the amendment has been withdrawn

This thread called it Sad

Mrsmartell08 · 29/06/2017 17:19

Yep...
Ffs

HashiAsLarry · 29/06/2017 17:21

I know TAAT are bad form, but thanks to these forums there is at least one person who is surprised to learn that ending FoM means for UK citizens too .

Sits in corner rocking repeatedly saying 'you believe in universal suffrage, you believe in universal suffrage' 😬

citroenpresse · 29/06/2017 17:22

But the amendment has been withdrawn (i.e. the amendment tabled by Labour Stella Creasy) BECAUSE the government has agreed to fund abortions, no?

BestIsWest · 29/06/2017 17:22

Sorry, I'm lost now - what's happened re the abortion amendment?

BestIsWest · 29/06/2017 17:23

Yes, that's what I thought too citroen, is that not the case?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 17:24

LH I am continually surprised by basic facts that some people don't know,
but not realizing that ending FOM applies to UK citizens too ....< tears out more hair >