Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 17:24

I think it's been withdrawn because they've agreed to "action" it. Creasy seemed happy enough when withdrawing the amendment so don't think it's anything sinister yet

howabout · 29/06/2017 17:25

Yes LH. Smith Commission following Indyref1. Loads of inconsistencies with Westminster / Holyrood now and tax and benefit system and Barnett - total fudge as per DC.

citroenpresse · 29/06/2017 17:26

Would have actually preferred the amendment to be enshrined with a vote rather than wait for the Tories to delay and dither and make up new rules with DUP pressure, but still. Stella Creasy has said she is 'satisfied'. Behaving like grown ups, still absolutely fine.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 17:26

Will be interesting to see how
everyone votes for the single market amendment - presumably there'll be a bigger majority to the nos than the previous amendments

howabout · 29/06/2017 17:27

So what's the system for non-EU workers going to Germany these days Bigchoc?

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 17:31

David Lammy‏*@DavidLammy*
I have been hearing directly from Grenfell survivors today. It is important that their voices are heard, so I am passing on their messages:
The support has been "scandalous" and "a farce". Survivors have attempted suicide because they feel so isolated, alone and unsupported
There are no social workers in the hotels working to suppory survivors. Survivors "have to find everything out for themselves"
There is "no central organisation" to manage and deliver victim support. No information delivery - survivors are finding out from each other
Survivors have also told us today that families are being offered accommodation outside of the borough of Kensington and Chelsea
Survivors feel like they have been failed, abandoned and let down, again. RBKC and Govnt need to listen to the survivors and act, please.
Survivors do not recognise official statements about support. They say: show us the families that have been offered housing and given money

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 17:31

What is OK to devolve / what are minimum standards that must be retained ?It's ok to devolve powers

imo, minimum requirements are that citizens of the UK should have the same basic human rights wherever they live in the UK

It should NOT be ok for one of the 4 UK countries to make it illegal to have IVF, or equal marriage, or equal rights under the law for gay people / Jews / Muslims
Ditto abortion
Regardless of what flavour of Sky Fairy that country prefers

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 17:33

Ayes - 101
Nos - 323

Fewer ayes but same amount as nos as previous amendments. Does that mean people abstained from voting on that amendment?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 17:36

Sorry, there were 322 nos so maybe a Tory abstained/voted aye?

WorshipTheGourd · 29/06/2017 17:41

Sorry to be thick but can someone confirm for me?
Have women in NI just failed to gain the right to come to the UK for termination of pregnancy as can be done in England, Scotland, Wales, which they were due to get, because the DUP dont want it and as they are propping up TM they get to call this?

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 17:41

Lib dems didn't vote at all on labours amendment and 1 DUP didn't vote.

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 17:41

Only 9 DUP votes

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 17:43

12 LDs voted for it sos here is the party numbers for yes

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 17:47

worship the Government have agreed to allow NI women to have free abortions in england on the NHS and will provide funding to allow this. The amendment has therefore been withdrawn. This thread is pretty split on how much we trust teh Government to actually deliver on this.

WorshipTheGourd · 29/06/2017 17:50

Sorry Bigly finding it hard to keep up - SO much happening atm! thanks.!
I wouldnt trust this lot with anything...

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 17:51

Thanks for Lammy's update, red . So Sad and Angry.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 17:52

Howabout UK and E27 expats moved and made their lives in another country, relying on the legal EU rules & treaties to which the Uk and E27 had both signed up.

It is totally unfair to retrospectively remove rights, just because the UK has given notice to tear up those treaties
There may even be a legal case for "acquired rights" for expats, after 5 years

imo, there was an implicit contract between these expats and the 28 countries involved .
Which is why it is not a case of the EU wanting control over the UK laws after Brexit: they are protecting the rights of the individual E27 citizens, who don't have the power to take on the Uk themselves.

I regard the situation as like a bank giving a customer a 1% fixed interest mortgage for 30 years
If the bank within the mortgage period splits into smaller banks, it would be outrageous for them to suddenly raise the interest to 10%, just because that is what some other customers have

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 18:01

Anyone would think May WANTS riots

There's been incredible dignity and stoicism by Grenfell survivors so far. It's a hardworking and educated demographic, not the rioting type, but May's handling of it is recklessly clueless, as are K&C right now. There's only so much they can take.

For how to write a decent report, I recommend MacPherson:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/277111/4262.pdf

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 18:07

Word on the Twitter is the labour front benches who supported Chukka's amendment at being sacked. If true it seems like that was a short, if enjoyable, moment of labour unity. Back to business a usual. Ho hum.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 18:12

Giving the Uk its cake & eat it deal is not "smart" for the EU - and hence not likely

Leavers completely misunderstand the EU.
Hence the totally unrealistic expectations they have and the ridiculous DD tactics they support.

There is no great wish to "punish" the UK for leaving
Even those who have long found the UK a hindrance in social policy or EU integration - or just plain awkward and arrogant - are aware that both sides would lose if there is a cliff edge Brexit.

However, they absolutely won't break fundamental EU principles for a soon to be ex-member
It would cost them far more than a no deal Brexit.

Public opinion in the E27 is overwhelmingly - about 2/3 - against breaking EU rules for the UK.
The German manufacturers federations too have all said the Single Market is more important to them than the UK. They aren't pressuring at all for the EU to give way.

Once the Uk leaves, it automatically becomes a "third country", like India, China or the US etc
(maybe a "4th country", because the EU has hundreds of trade arrangements and deals with most other countries, but none with the UK, unless these can be negotiated by Autumn 2018)

So, no deal is not a punishment by the EU; it is the default option in A50

If there is no basic agreement on citizens rights, Ireland and the exit bill, then trade talks won't even start.
So the type of possible trade deal is academic anyway

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 18:15

Here is a list of the sacked labour MPs, plus one resigned before the vote according to this tweet.

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
Motheroffourdragons · 29/06/2017 18:16

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 18:23

So, no deal is not a punishment by the EU; it is the default option in A50

The thing is, the UK public are so used to spivvy politics, they will refuse to believe we couldn't slip someone a Euro or two and get our own way.

Motheroffourdragons · 29/06/2017 18:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Gumpendorf · 29/06/2017 18:26

I thought the LP supported staying in the single market ?

I think Corbyn's fudge is 'full access to the single market'. At some point he is going to have to come clean - many of us won't vote again for a Labour Party that nods through Brexit.

Swipe left for the next trending thread