Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

I'm not sure how importing millions of people with attitudes at least as backwards and patriarchal as mine

Who are you referring to exactly here, just out of interest?

whatwouldrondo's point about Angela Merkel

The millions of people are immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa are who are tad conservative and patriarchal

millions of people with attitudes at least as backwards and patriarchal as mine

^^ That bit. I'd like to know exactly who you are referring to and describing in that specific phrase, please.

less I don't think you are thick either.
I do think we have, in some areas, vastly different POV

Having said that, I agree the issue with natality rate is linked with the policies of several governments.
I also think that as women are entering the work place more and have becoming more and more independent, being a mum is not seen as THE aim for a woman anymore. Plenty of women chose to opt out from that because their focus is on something else (their career, the partner, their life and enjoying it, whatever else it can be)

And yes Japan is giving us an idea of what happens when a country has a low natality rate.

The issue for me though is that it is not possible to carry in with a system based on the growth of the population because our planet will not be able to cope with so many humans!
We will have to find another way, no sure which one.

Atm, immigration is a good way to do that TBH.

The millions of people are immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa are who are tad conservative and patriarchal

Thing is lessthan, whether we are in our out of the EU has no bearing on how much migration we would see to the UK from North African countries.
We are also increasingly targeted by IS terrorists despite Brexit.
I get you are concerned about immigration (although I am not) but brexit isn't the answer.

Take issue with the PP who challenged whether the UK is among the most densely populated countries in the EU. It is; last week's figures show the total population topping 65 million, and rising by 500,000 annually. Hence the pressure on housing, health care, and school places

Malta, the Netherlands and Belgium are the three most densely populated nations, closely followed by the UK. However, the distribution of population in England is more like the Benelux countries, obviously because the wilderness areas of Scotland and Wales distort the average.

I'm not sure how importing millions of people with attitudes at least as backwards and patriarchal as mine is the solution but I may be proved wrong. That and the subsequent two years of mayhem and murder was why I decided to vote to leave the EU.

How do you know that these "millions" of immigrants arrive with such homogenous attitudes? They come from many different countries, some are Christian, some are Muslim, some are of no religion. Islam as a religion is no more effected by internal conflicts between those tolerant of minorities and those that are not than Christianity. Indeed I know many Muslim women, including academics exiled from their home countries , who argue for a tolerant version of Islam that empowers them. Have you listened to some of the Christian Evangelicals recently? The fastest growing faction of the Anglican church, misogyny, racism, disableism, homophobia, they do it all in God's name justified by a very selective reading of the bible. The issue that a group of terrorists have appropriated some aspects of Islam and then made up justification for their activities is not something that in any way represents the vast majority of Muslims, including immigrants. It is not an issue of immigration, it is happening within western countries as well as in other parts of the world. The "murder and mayhem" in the UK is homegrown, and some of it is by white British people with a nationalist agenda.

It is not just an issue of religion either. Confucianism, the non political ideology that influences not just China but its diaspora across the world has been responsible for some of the worst examples of patriarchal inequality and abuse in history.

The struggle to assert liberal values is one faced by countries across the world, and the EU has actually been at the forefront of it, whether standing up to Trump, or working with the Eastern European and ASEAN countries to encourage and facilitate their development as liberal states.

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

racism
noun [ U ] UK /ˈreɪ.sɪ.zəm/ US /ˈreɪ.sɪ.zəm/ also uk old-fashioned racialism [disapproving]

the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races

Red I do agree that many women choose to opt out of motherhood which is their right as independent adult humans and I do think that many women would like to have children or more children but are unable to as a result of government policies. To put it like this my parents had their first child in their early 20's while I was ten years older. That was partly through choice and partly through economic circumstances. I was brought up in a council house which my parents bought for buttons not make a profit but because they wanted to ensure they never lost their home. We paid 6 figures for a virtually identical house just round the corner.

I agree with you about overpopulation however the answer to that is increased rights for women in the developing world not just moving the surplus population from one part of the world to the other.

And again .....pressure on housing, health care, and school places was mentioned again. This comes from successive governments' policy but mostly austerity. All serious studies show the impact of EU immigration brings a proven benefit not a detriment.

The facts from both Treeza's own department's and other detailed research was that....

"EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they take out in welfare and the use of public services. They therefore help reduce the budget deficit. Immigrants do not have a negative effect on local services such as crime, education, health, or social housing."

Those are the facts.

TM knows this so why is she showing such an illogical lack of grace about it? It's weird. EU born residents only equate to 5% of the population anyway.

All this fuss about a beneficial 5%.

If the gov believes (against their own evidence) that there is a problem, then why isn't there equivalent attention given to illegal immigration or on non EU migration?

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/287287/occ109.pdf
cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

If brexiters were genuinely concerned about the culture of immigrants why would they aim to replace EU immigration with immigrants from former commonwealth countries many of which have very different attitudes towards women?

Why attempt to discourage large numbers of highly educated young French city workers, with whom it can fairly be assumed that we share large parts of our culture and social attitudes? Or Spanish science graduates who now supply a large part of the workforce in some U.K. research and development units? Who will you replace them with?

I suppose the brexiters solution is that if you get rid of the city and R&D jobs you won't need EU graduates to do them?

(Note that I'm not saying that we should judge immigrants on their home-country culture. Immigrants typically adopt much of the culture of their host nation. But if your argument is that "we want immigrants who look and think like us" then discouraging EU immigration is pretty stupid).

less I am not by the way being personal in this. It is just that you have clearly been influenced by a representation of immigration and immigrants that those of us who have lived in immigrant communities and had experience of immigrants know not to be true. That is why areas of high immigration tended to vote Remain and the highest Leave votes were amongst voters who had no direct experience of immigration other than how it was represented by government and some elements of the media.

My experience of immigration is one of communities that come together, bounded by the more in common than divides us. People from all over the world share values of respect and common decency towards fellow human beings and a willingness to learn from each others ways of life. My life has been very much enriched by living with other cultures both in Britain and overseas. Look at the Grenfall fire, when all over London people came together regardless of religion or ethnicity to help. The victims were not exactly true to stereotype, were they? The death toll would be so much higher if they had not been still awake because of Ramadan, returning from or out at work, knocking on each others doors, helping each other.

Nope moving people isn't THE answer.
But it's a good way to solve the issue FOR THE UK whilst we sort out a way to keep our economy going whilst avoiding an increase or actually see our population decreasing.
Like a stop gap measure.

ron I agree. There is so much variation in the level of education from immigrants form the ME. Some (a lot?) of them are well educated. And some aren't. Some are very tolerant people who have been kicked out of their country thanks to 'measures' taken against minorities etc... Some are more extremists.
Managing the influx of people with a very varied culture is hard. Even when they are well educated (harder when they are not).

less- you are reminding me of my parents who have lived abroad for the last 40 years. They both struggle to reconcile the image that they have of France and what they can see nowdays, a much more varied society with different races and religions (and completely unheard of whe they left. France was white and catholic).
Except that things have changed and will carry on changing.

The challenge is how we are going to deal with that change rather than trying to stop the change iyswim

Divided Yes yes

You know what if or when the EU 'immigrants' issue is resolved. Guess who will be vilified next? It will be back to the Asians Blacks and common wealth citizens. Again

People just go along with the states 'othering' rather than looking at the true causes of their deprivation. Is not the Polish guy or the Indian Shopkeeper or The Black van driver or their families

Its those that are in power who want to retain it. So we are pited against each other. For what? You have been conned

Dividedkingdom People's attitudes including both mine and yours are not influenced by race but by culture. We are all products of the environment and culture we were brought up in. There is no biological difference between people of different races.

Whatwouldrondo I haven't listened to any Christian evangelicals lately the reason being they are a tiny irrelevant minority within the UK. I
I would accept Muslims are not a homogenous group but I cant think of many Muslim countries (weirdly Iran seems to be among the exceptions) that are moving in a more liberal direction.

I love it when I'm not a racist but ......the culture ..the culture is cited

Getting my popcorn and settling in

less whether countries are moving towards a more liberal direction is linked to a lot of issues, incl the incessant interventions of the US (and theUK, and before France too).
It's linked with major economic issues etc...

Because basically when a country is starting to struggle economically, it tends to close upon itself, look for scapegoats and go to extremes (often fair right type of things).

Again the issue isn't just about their religion and look they are Muslims so what can we expect. It is much more complex than that and involves a role that WE, as the Uk, want to avoid to recognise.

whatwouldrondo I dont think your being personal at all. I quite like a good political argument/discussion on the interweb. Believe it or not I live in a large city in the UK and have friends and in some cases family members of different religions and races. I just feel real unease about the future.

Less if you feel unease. Why not think about your fellow humans who are EU citizens or Muslims or Black or Asian

If you are a white UK citizen living in the UK you have far far less to fear than any other above

Cast your vision outwards not inwards

Somerville is symbolic of an issue that is being ignored. The cut off point at which EU citizens exercised their rights and entered the UK is a big issue. What about the people born in NI (de facto part of UK politically) who identify solely as Irish and are EU citizens. As they are entitled to do. A cut off point for entry is irrelevant as they are native and will be adding new, little Irish EU citizens every day. It won't be self limiting. In fact it may be increasing and quite possibly represent a majority of people in that region. What is the provision for them wrt the protection of their rights as EU citizens?

I have not heard any gov't discussion about it. Mind you, they are not on top of anything at all.

All that 'now lets get to work' from May. If only someone hasn't wasted weeks and weeks on a snap election. Labour should have made them go for a vote of no confidence.

"Why not think about your fellow humans who are EU citizens or Muslims or Black or Asian

If you are a white UK citizen living in the UK you have far far less to fear than any other above"

Aargh. My point exactly. All UK citizens born in the UK and living in the UK (NI part) are not British. UK Citizens in NI (hue irrelevant) can identify solely as Irish EU citizens.

That and the subsequent two years of mayhem and murder was why I decided to vote to leave the EU.

Two issues with this, (1) there is no evidence whatsoever of an increase in crime and "mayhem" as a result of migration flows, in fact, there is lots of research to show that migrants tend to commit fewer crimes than local people with similar demographic / income profiles, and (2) what on earth has this got to do with the case for/against Brexit? We are not in Schengen!

The stuff about Leo Varadkar becoming Taoiseach (Irish PM) as a huge breakthrough is something is not part of the narrative in his career. He is the qualified doctor son of a consultant. Very Fine Gael fit. It is irrelevant whether his father was Indian or that he is gay. The progressive nature of his premiership is in the eating.

So, 19 men to his cabinet and 3 women. Yeah, right on breath of fresh inclusive air. Not.

Soz, junior ministers.