Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

She went on literally ranting at me that we should all pay as she in her country has to etc. So here I am having treatment on the NHS being lectured by a migrant worker who is employed by the NHS on what is and what is not my right.

You get odd balls everywhere. She definitely was out of order to tell you that you're lucky for receiving healthcare and discuss politics with you, unprofessional, you should complain.

But the way you write about this sits not well with me. The tone is like how dare this immigrant woman, who's should be bloody grateful to work for our superior NHS, voice an opinion and tell me, who is superior to her by way of not being a 1st G immigrant, what's good for me.

This sort of tone smacks of pure xenophobia and is deeply unpleasant, no matter how many 'xx' are added at the end. This sort of inherent xenophobia is unfortunately not uncommon. You may not feel xenophobia against all foreigners seeing that your closest friends are from ethnic minority backgrounds but there are plenty of people who have family roots in the former British colonies who are xenophobic against EU citizens, especially those from eastern Europe.

You say that the world has changed, and that is life, if you don't like the way things change get involved in politics don't blame it on people form the EU who settled here to contribute.

May's offer is not fair. Because we are talking about people who have organised their lives, their assets, their relationships their being in such a way that they rely on their EU rights whilst living in a country they are not born in.

These EU citizens settled here (or abroad if they are British) under the premise of having all the rights British people have bar being allowed to vote in GE. It's a bit late to tell me now that I stand to loose part of my family (my mil for instance) or possibly my pension or my ability to work and earn money should I return home because I may not be employable there due to the fact that my career was based here. I am middle aged, kids still in school. Not the best time to uproot the family.

Had I known that I had limited rights I would have never ever stayed in the UK. My native country offers a better lifestyle for people who live there (not necessarily for me any longer as I am out of the system and possibly not employable & my dc would disadvantaged as my native language isn't theirs). I'm not here for handouts there are none.

In actual fact part of the charm of living here was that things aren't so well organised and spotless but a bit 'rough around the edges'. I used to prefer this to the beautiful, clean streets in my German home town, the well organised health care, everything was so naice and in my view too easy, which I found boring. Living in London was more chaotic, housing was shit but I made friends with amazingly clever and interesting people from all over the world and studied for years acquiring a PhD and feeling like this was my spiritual home. I love the diversity in London and felt my home town in Germany was so plain and 'square' in comparison.

The first time I went into a British hospital (St Thomas in London) I experienced a culture shock. I have seen hospitals in the Gambia where I worked with the MRC for a while and the hospitals were very basic 3rd world places. I expected that and was not phased.

The wards I remember seeing at St Thomas when visiting a friend with MS were horrible, run down, grim, massive, to me it seemed like a 3rd world setting. Totally grim. Mind this is over 15 years ago now so things might have improved.

In contrast, each time I visit a doctor in Germany (now privately but i was insured withe a German health insurance as a student for my first 5 years here) I am in awe at how amazing the clinic looks, how clean and new and modern the rooms and equipment are. Housing, public services, trains etc. all much better organised and better value for money in my home country.

I still like(d) living here, I feel tied and bound to the UK and to my community but sadly it feels like the UK doesn't tolerate people like us any longer.

It really stinks, it's a bit like breaking up with a long term partner because he has stopped loving you and disentangle a very much entangled life.

It really stinks, it's a bit like breaking up with a long term partner because he has stopped loving you and disentangle a very much entangled life.

YY but I think that very few British people do realise how hurtful the whole project has been to eu citizens in the uk and brits abroad (to a lesser extend).
They be been told for the last few years that eu citizens were just immigrants so they sort of expect us to act and to have panned as we had been immigrants all the time.
When actually moving from one eu country to the another has nothing to do with immigrating in the traditional sense of the word.

My preferred definition of racism is power + prejudice

Lessworried The fact that many countries are on a trajectory towards becoming less liberal is exactly why many immigrants are here, because their lives, or livelihoods, are at risk in their own countries for standing up for more liberal values. Our asylum system exist precisely for that reason.

I also would not dismiss the impact a "tiny minority" of evangelical Christians have in society when they have influence in a church that has representatives in the House of Lords and the Queen as their representative, and the daughter of one of their priests in Number 10 who manifests many of that institutions culture and values......

Shefied no tone was meant, I am not such an eloquent writer as some, read further posts of mine on same subject. There are 2 making a point. X

Can I ask about NI? I need to say that I'm totally clueless there.

I appreciate that people in NI can identify as Irish rather than British.
However, their citizenship is still British isn't it?

So when the UK comes out of the EU, these poeple will stay British, in Britain but with less possible contact with RoI (which they indentify with).

I thought this was one of the sticking point. In that, the system of 'identifying as' only works if you can still access ROI.
So this is likely to lead to unrest as they wouldn't be able to identify as Irish as easily as before.

Did I get that right??

Well UKIP was and has always been a tiny minority. But look at the impact they've had!

Re the discussions on the demographic timebomb this link gives an interesting insight. The shape of the population between age ranges is much more relevant than the birth, death or immigration rate in the present. Prompted to search this out because actually Japan has a similar birth rate to the EU as a whole and has been higher than Germany's throughout the last 50 years. The economic crisis in Japan was not caused by demographics but rather the other way around.

Re the UK, the population profile is more or less columnar below age 65 - same for France. For Germany the population profile is ice-cream cone shaped with an ever smaller base of young people - same for Japan. So while Germany has a demographic timebomb issue it is much less clear that the UK does.

www.populationpyramid.net/united-kingdom/2017/

You can ignore the kiss shefied, I am not racist or xenophobic in any sense of the word. In fact, you have got my back up considerably. I won't waste my breathe arguing with you. Perhaps you will class that as speech racism. Pffffft!

Redpepper UKIP polled 12.6% of total votes in the 2015 GE as compared to 7.9% for the LIbDems.

What about before that though?
That's what I mean. UKIP was considered as a little party with no interest at all until the 2015 election. It's interesting that it has gone back down again in this election. And I suspect that trend will continue.

I ts also a party that had very few MPs at all. Less than the DUP for example. But it somehow managed to make itself heard very well.

So here I am having treatment on the NHS being lectured by a migrant worker who is employed by the NHS on what is and what is not my right.

"Being lectured by a migrant worker" sounds xenophobic. I appreciate that you don't think of yourself as xenophobic and I am not here to pick a fight, we all have our stories individual preferences. What your HCP said sounds unpleasant and not something a patient should have to listen to during a therapy session I can see why you were fed up with her. But why emphasise that she was a migrant worker? Would have minded less being told the same by a native worker?

I suspect the UKIP vote went down because of a lot of UIKIP voters went back to labour because they had leaving the EU and ending freedom of movement in their manifesto. That and loosing their most recognisable figure in Nigel Farage. I would say that I have never voted UIKIP.

Sheffiedl you explain the situation which millions are facing very clearly, and I am so very sorry you are going through this. The point you make regarding inherent xenophobia is also very well made.

Well UKIP was and has always been a tiny minority. But look at the impact they've had!

However, you do have to remember that they had a huge amount of support from the Express, Mail and Telegraph. Would UKIP have done so well without the anti-immigrant message being promoted most days? However, we have had a year of the BBC - with programmes like Question Time continually promoting UKIP, yet despite that, their vote collapsed. Some undoubtedly went to the Tories, but other votes just disappeared.

If I may say, I think it's very common to expect immigrants to keep a low profile and not make any comment about the cintrybthey are living in, esp not negative ones.

It's not sos as such. It's something that can be found all over the world and something that I, as an 'immigrant', have always felt.
This is the reason why I have never contacted our MP for example I just hoped in vain DH would do it. This is why I'm careful about i write on FB. This is why I've always found it harder to go and complain.

Have a look at the article I linked to earlier on. I think it's quite spot on.
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/dina-nayeri-ungrateful-refugee

UKIP has only disappeared because both Labour and the Conservatives are now, in their different ways, dealing with the issues its voters were concerned about imho.

This is all so.......... Many people will suffer with brexit from many nations, sorry can't do nothing about it. I can vote for a different government but that's all I can do. But just because I can't do anything does not mean I don't care. But truthfully I can only worry so much about it. What I can make out 4 years down the line seems to be the time for real anguish. If course you are all worried, of course you dont know what's going to happen, of course no one should be in this situation but we all are. We can hope we don't come out of EU, we can hope for a good deal if not. Trouble is no one knows what the hell is going on really. We all surmise this or that will happen. We all think our world is going to end. But it won't. We will all be (well some of us) alive and hopefully well. Life will go on, difficult times and choices are ahead for all concerned, countries may fall, a third world war may happen and I might win the lottery. But in the meanwhile let's be nice to each other, care about each other and keep hoping it won't be so bad.

Of course we need immigrants but is it really too much too expect for people coming here to be able to prove who they are, that they don't have a criminal record and have a job to go to.

Britain could always have done this but chose not to is my understanding. Other European countries do it. When I came to Spain in 1999 I could not use the health service or claim the dole or work until I had applied for and received a Foreigner Number (NIE). I had to prove I had a job or demonstrate a certain amounts of funds in the bank. Once I had my NIE I could apply for a health card. Once I had worked for a certain amount of time (a year I think) I could claim dole, but even that runs out after a certain amount of time and you have to work again to earn more.

UKIP has only disappeared because both Labour and the Conservatives are now, in their different ways, dealing with the issues its voters were concerned about imho.

I'm not sure about that! For one thing, they seem only to be Farage - all the others lack the 'charisma' that he did, and have shown themselves to be dishonest or clueless.

The main issues for UKIP were 'blame the EU' - well, OK, that's being dealt with (sort of, in a half cock way by May), and boot out immigrants, who are going of their own accord or not coming.

One of the problems is austerity but as yet I don't really see either main party dealing with that.

I am quite sure that there is a thesis in the decline of UKIP for someone.

Its so laughable to be labelled as inherent xenophobic. Age 4 in hospital hands bandaged heavily because a care worker decided that my olive skin was dirty and thought scrubbing my hands with a floor scrubber and 2 bottles of bleach would make me clean enough for her.

I think that the difference in the level of worry depends on where you are.

When you are in the privilege position (in the case of Brexit, white British), there is a worry that the economy is going to collapse etc...
That's what a lot of people around me are doing. They are worried but not so worried iyswim.
Then you can be part of the non privilege group (so let's say eu citizens, any immigrant, or even British Muslim, of Pakistani origin etc...) and then things are different. For me, it's not about being worried. It's a deep real fear that has invaded everything in that last year. It has been close to panic many times. As well as seen the world around me collapsing, wondering if I needed to reassess most of the interactions I have in RL etc etc
truthfully I can only worry so much about it. seem to be a very nice place to be in from my side.

I think I need to go and calm down. Peace to all.

*those British residents of Spain and France you are referring to are presumably wealthy pensioners who are largely self supporting although they may have to take out some sort of extra insurance if they wish to be treated.

Again - the myth that the majority of Brits who live in another EU country are part of some wealthy, "expat" set who will be able to ride out any teething problems from Brexit. When in reality a lot of pensioners in Spain and France are struggling as the pound has devalued massively and their pensions are being hugely stretched. Again, one of the great benefits of free movement was precisely the fact that people who weren't wealthy could benefit if they chose from being able to move elsewhere in the EU.*

They aren't all pensioners either! I live in Spain, inland, in a city and know a lot of other Brits and NOT SINGLE ONE is a pensioner. They are all working age and mostly with Spanish born children.
So many people voted for Brexit without knowing anything about anything it seems.