Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

We are not 'full'.

What we are is suffering from chronic under investment in housing, health and education coupled with poor planning skills for the future.

In short - lead by incompetents and people who don't give a shit about 'the people'.

If we are 'full' explain how other EU countries are dealing with more migrants and higher population densities quite easily by comparison.

This is not enforced in the UK, perhaps because we don't have an ID card system as other countries do.

I assume that those people enter the country on a passport, which means that they can be identified pretty readily. Once again, this is an excuse. The UK chose not to enforce the rules - it's now whinging that it's not fair.

Jessica Elgot‏*@jessicaelgot*
Friends of Ed Davey tell me he is very likely to run in Lib Dem leadership contest.

Cable v Davey for LD leader

Now now grape and pointy. After a year you must know trying to counteract tabloid lies with actual facts won't make a difference

less but no eu citizens has ever been allowed to go to another eu country, settle down and start living only form benefits.
That's not what the FOM is about.

There was a case afew years ago in France when Pepe from Roumania did that. They were sent back to Roumania.
If the uk wanted, they could have done that too.
Just as they could have asked people to fill in some form re their income etc... like they do in Spain.
(As an aside, not all the Brits who are living in Europe are Wheatley pensioners. Quite the opposite. The Spanish economy with low prices is what has attracted pensioner there because life is cheaper therefore they could get a better quality of life there when they would have struggled in the U.K.)

I have no issue with having a document proving that I can stay/work/receive NHS treatment in the uk. It's like the green card in the US.
I think that calling it an ID card was a wrong move. (Fwiw I already have both an ID card and a passport...)
But I do ask how on earth it's going to work. Do you remember the story of the woman who went to London with her dd. Her dd needed hospital treatment but they didn't want to give it to her until she had paid etc... because from her accent she was clearly a foreigner. Except that actually they were going from 'up north' (Newcastle or Glasgow, I can't quite remember).... how are they going to deal with these situations???

I also want to know the cost. Seeing that a naturalisation cost over £2k, how much will that card cost? Is it going to stop some people from applying?

And that's even before going into whether this is good enough for the EU or not.

It's also not correct that Switzerland requires people to prove they have a job to go to, they could also be self-sufficient.

It is true though, EU law already allowed for the UK to kick people out who don't become a qualified person within 3 months of entry. We just, for whatever reason, didn't. That isn't the fault of the EU...

Your right a lot of the problems we have are down to the incompetence of successive UK governments of both parties.

Its a bit unfair though when your British and have been waiting in some cases for years to get a social housing and someone just turns up and jumps ahead of you in the queue. And people wonder why British people aren't having enough children. Of course the solution is to build more social housing.

those British residents of Spain and France you are referring to are presumably wealthy pensioners who are largely self supporting although they may have to take out some sort of extra insurance if they wish to be treated.

Again - the myth that the majority of Brits who live in another EU country are part of some wealthy, "expat" set who will be able to ride out any teething problems from Brexit. When in reality a lot of pensioners in Spain and France are struggling as the pound has devalued massively and their pensions are being hugely stretched. Again, one of the great benefits of free movement was precisely the fact that people who weren't wealthy could benefit if they chose from being able to move elsewhere in the EU.

Cable v Davey for LD leader

I get posts from the LDs on my Facebook page. A couple of statements from Ed Davey have started popping up so I did wonder if this was a precursor to him running. Even as a LD member, I can't say I know much about him.

But then you also have to think about what those people 'who jump the queue' (fwiw they aren't. Jumping the queue assumes they have use 'unethical' means to get something before other who were just as entitled to it than them) have actually given to the country.
So let's say the fruit picker that allows you eat your strawberries, the cadre that looks afetr your gran etc...
They might have 'jumped the queue' but would the country be a better place if they weren't there ? Remembering that wo them there wouldn't be anyone/enough people to do these jobs...

Its a bit unfair though when your British and have been waiting in some cases for years to get a social housing and someone just turns up and jumps ahead of you in the queue.

I doubt whether you can give an actual example.

Delurking...

When in reality a lot of pensioners in Spain and France are struggling as the pound has devalued massively and their pensions are being hugely stretched.
*
Banana* And not just pensioners. We're currently in the EU with DH who is in the forces. He gets paid through the UK system so paid in £, spending €. It is absolutely crippling, especially with a mortgage to pay in the U.K. And this is for somebody who hasn't chosen to move abroad per se, but is serving their country from abroad.

Thank you to all of you who contribute. Reading your threads is an absolute education. Feeling the same despair and embarrassment about the current situation.

One of the very big issue with the Leave campaign is that it concentrated on immigrants and eu citizens as being scroungers that have been running the country down (by various means, wages down, NHS, council houses etc...).

But wo ever talking about what they have brought to the country and the fact that the country doesn't run wo them.
From nurses, to fruits pickers to academics and specialist in their field.

Somwe have a scapegoat for the ills in the society and no responsibility at all for whatbthey should have done.
A completely distorted image of the reality (or were they plain lies??) that are still carried on and on wo any respect either for the British people, for their will but with the only intend to benefit the few.
Because those lies allow them to do whatever they want wo any uprising from the population.

People are forced into social housing not just by the lack of housing but the cost of private rentals as our economy and country allows property to be an 'investment'.

We have plenty of empty houses. We just have made a political choice to encourage buy to let and not discourage empty properties.

We DO need to build more housing, but it would also be helpful to fill existing ones too.

The only attempt to try and resolve issues with housing has been the dreadful bedroom tax which penalises people who have empty rooms. Where is the penalty for empty houses?

I think that British citizens should have priority in social housing, I also think that we should be building more of it.

Before we move on, I need to stress that in comparison to other EU countries Brits have higher than average number of children, lessworried. EU-28 average was 1.58 live births per woman in 2015, UK 1.80. Only Ireland, France and Sweden has higher live birth rate than the UK. ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Total_fertility_rate,1960%E2%80%932015(live_births_per_woman)_YB17.png

Sorry, hashi...

redtoothbrush I agree with everything you said in your post.

Its particularly scandalous that we are paying those buy to let landlords large sums in housing benefits for them to rent out former council houses. An empty bedroom house sounds like an excellent idea.

those British residents of Spain and France you are referring to are presumably wealthy pensioners who are largely self supporting although they may have to take out some sort of extra insurance if they wish to be treated.

I know quite a few families, young and old, who have made lives in France because the living and property costs are lower. They are very very worried because they simply could not afford to return to the UK and cover their living, and medical costs etc. with no access to benefits for six months. They went there from the North if England from cities and towns where the living and property costs are some of the cheapest in the U.K. The older ones are already struggling with paying for food in France on depleted pensions.

Its a bit unfair though when your British and have been waiting in some cases for years to get a social housing and someone just turns up and jumps ahead of you in the queue.
Local authorities are allowed to insist social housing allocations go to people who have resided in the area 'for at least two years', so in think this 'jumping the queue' business is another myth.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/269035/1312199circularforrpdf.pdf

These are guidelines from the department for communities and local government from.

Re the rights of eu citizens in the uk

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/what-are-eu-migrants-entitled-terms-benefits-and-housing-and-when

Amongst other things
These include jobseekers from the European Economic Area (EEA) – predominantly migrants from EU states – having to wait three months before they can claim for Jobseekers’ Allowance.
they can then only claim Jobseekers’ Allowance for six months
So no eu citizens can actually come here just to claim benefits and those who do actually have a restricted access to them.

From April this year, new EEA migrant jobseekers have no longer been allowed housing benefit.
As you can see that article is from 2014....

Fwiw this scared the hell out of me then (and still does TBH) because having a chronic illness, I am unable to work full time. If anything was to happen to DH, I would not only find myself with a restricted income BUT also unable to claim support the same way than a British citizen could...

One way out of all this is to simply confer UK citizenship on all EU nationals in the UK.

Much like the entire population of East Germany became "German" overnight when Germany reunified.

Or does the UK lack the resolve and resources of those nasty German types ?

Fwiw this was also seen as unacceptable by the EU at the time.....

Yes Britain's birthrate is about 1.9 children per women so basically at around the rate of replenishment.

having to wait three months before they can claim for Jobseekers’ Allowance.

That was Camerons (disgraceful) attempt to satisfy the EuroSceptics. Remember it also had to apply to UK citizens.