Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

That was a shock and so sorry folks but nonetheless true.

sos Ive had it the other way around. Being told all sort about immigrants by someone I was treating and who knew I'm not british....

The answer to your question is ... I don't know.

I know what I did, which was the very British thing of not saying anything. And carrying on looking after that person. It doesn't sit well with me at all and I have not found yet what will be my answer next time (because I'm pretty sure there will be a next time).

She was right on some levels (the need for the uk to have some immigrants and the fact that other countries don't have the same level of cover than here). She was wrong about making assumptions about what is right or fair. I suspect that she hasn't been there for a long time and hasn't fully assimilated the 'British ways'. She also seemed to have made her view of what's going on in the uk by reading the DM.

Yes, you have choices Sos but others have many more. David Cameron could choose to spend £25,000 on a garden shed - I couldn't, or not without a huge sacrifice. He could pull his children out of state education tomorrow and easily be able to afford the fees - not something I could have done. He could afford private medical treatment. And so on. He has definitely been dealt a more prosperous hand in life than either you or me.

However, there are some things money can't buy - Theresa May wanted children and wasn't able to have them. Maybe if she was thirty years younger now, her money would enable her to buy rounds of IVF or go abroad for treatment, but there is still no guarantee of success. I can feel some sympathy with her about that, but with nothing else.

hardcoreladytype our treatment with the NHS is free at the point of delivery however we pay taxes so its not exactly free.

That's really sad, sos, but my point still stands. You mention that you have a good friend who is Punjabi. Did they (or their parents) make a good or poor choice to migrate? Why was it not a poor choice? Was it because they were clever enough to look into the future, or was it because the way events unfolded was favourable to them?

What would you have said back? I would have said this:

1. I know how lucky we are to have our NHS propped up by migrant workers like you
2. I'm frightened by the Deloitte report stating 50% of skilled workers (like yourself) are expected to leave the UK within 5 years as this will clearly decimate our entire healthcare system
3. I'm sad and ashamed that the UK government, Leave and Non-voters did not appreciate you or bother to research your deeply valuable contribution to our society during the Brexit referendum process...I can imagine it must be very sad and frustrating to have been on the receiving end of that
4. I'm interested to learn what we can from other health services in the EU (and wider world) which seem to be functioning to a higher standard and without undue burden on the residents because clearly the NHS is not working as expected...how does healthcare work in Lithuania?
5. Please understand that there are many British people, including myself that value you, are deeply sympathetic to the extreme and totally unnecessary stress you have been placed under for over a year
6. Please understand that many of us are actively fighting for your rights and this is not just a meaningless platitude
7. Thank you for looking after me. I'm so sorry our country is littered with people who look down on "migrant workers" as second rate citizens. I am not one of them.

But enough about me...what did you say?

Re the fact she wasn't British but still expressed a POV thatbyu found rude and inconfortable.

Have a read at that article about immigrants/refugees
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/dina-nayeri-ungrateful-refugee
This rang a few bells for me, incl the fact that, as immigrants, you are supposed to be eternally grateful to be accepted in the country , that you can't say anything bad about that place.

Really, worried? And there was I thinking there was a magic money tree!

Of course we need immigrants but is it really too much too expect for people coming here to be able to prove who they are, that they don't have a criminal record and have a job to go to. A friend of mine recently moved to Switzerland and had to do all of the above. If I decided to move to another country I would be happy to apply for visa.

By the looks of things the deal TM offered the EU was pretty fair and will result in pretty much every EU citizen who has been living in the UK for over 5 years being able to stay and those who have been here under 5 years having a path to permanent residency.

I am not lucky to have the NHS, it is my Democratic right as a British citizen to have access to a service set up by a British government years ago for the people of this country. No one should lecture me whatever creed nationality or colour on what is my Democratic rights in my country. Not even a fellow Brit!

Of course we need immigrants but is it really too much too expect for people coming here to be able to prove who they are, that they don't have a criminal record and have a job to go to.

And we don't do that now because......?

And by the way I never said a word. In fact I didn't even report her because I felt sorry for her, she must have been having a bad time. I am terminally Ill and severely disabled and I never gave myself a thought.

Rights that have been given, can be taken away, sos. Like us EU citizens are experiencing right now. That's kind of the point everyone's been making.

By the looks of things the deal TM offered the EU was pretty fair and will result in pretty much every EU citizen who has been living in the UK for over 5 years being able to stay and those who have been here under 5 years having a path to permanent residency.

It doesn't really matter if it is "fair" or not; it just has to be acceptable to the EU27. And this offer won't be.

I would note here that one of the issues is that "permanent residency" or "settled status" or whatever you wish to call it is not permanent. This introduced a number of issues that will be dealbreakers for the EU.

Finally I would add that if you want people to prove that "they have a job to go to" as one of the criteria, you can look forward to the return of the vast majority of British migrants in Spain and many of those in France.

Love you all got to go dds here.

well that is a very good question, I would assume possibly wrongly that all EU citizens have the right to travel to other EU countries to seek work. I think it is also the case that your meant to only be able to claim benefits after 6 months however that is never enforced. It does seem to be possible to turn up with your family and all your worldly goods in a plastic bag and be housed because your vulnerable.

If you've ever seen a council or social housing 2 man job list there are a lot of people on it who are clearly not British (I've spoken to some and they are not ) and are truly awful people. There are also to be fair a lot of native brits on there too.

Don't forget that British citizens/spouses have already lost rights they once took for granted. I assumed that when DS got married, his wife, an EU citizen would automatically be allowed to claim citizenship by virtue of marriage. Not so, DS told me - the law had changed. Hence DIL had to pay the fee for naturalisation and sit the citizenship test.

For a British/Australian example. Need I specify who was the Home Secretary at the time?

Understandably the rest of the EU wants to protect its citizens rights, knowing how we change the law for our own citizens.

Mistrigirl those British residents of Spain and France you are referring to are presumably wealthy pensioners who are largely self supporting although they may have to take out some sort of extra insurance if they wish to be treated.

Your right though I don't think the EU are interested in fairness which says more about them than us. I think swift and relatively painless Brexit deal would be in everybody's best interests. The EU wants to move towards ever closer union and the end of the nation state which would not be acceptable to not just the 52% who voted for Brexit but the overwhelming majority of the British public. Probably the majority of people in the EU come to think of it but I doubt that will stop them.

I've just found the answer to my previous question.
As the rights of British and Irish citizens in each other’s countries are rooted in the Ireland Act 1949, Irish nationals won’t need to apply for the new status.

Assuming I'll still be allowed to be recognised as Irish if the GFA goes pop. It's notable I think that they mention the 1949 act and not GFA (which is what enshrined the rights of those of us born in the north to be British/Irish/both).

lessworriedaboutthecat
I am Spanish, from the Valencia/Alicante area. I don't know about the British residents in Sotogrande or Formentor, but the majority of British residents in Spain (Costa Blanca, Costa del Sol, Costa Cálida, etc.) are not wealthy at all.
My cousin works in Social Services in one of these Costas and deals with elderly Brits who struggle in Spain and could not afford to return. In many cases they do not own property in the UK and, in any case, current living costs in the UK would be too expensive for them.

Ah another Leaver singing the 'it will work out fine' tune, with statements about what the British public want, when it's really 'What I want'. What exactly is this swift and painless Brexit?

May is in trouble now because she can't even agree on citizenship rights. If she wasn't so obsessed with immigration she could easily enhance British citizens' rights to be the same as those of other EU citizens and then the problem goes away.

I look forward to her even attempting to negotiate the thorny problem of the N Ireland situation - which she has just compromised by giving a bung to the DUP.

Normally I just lurk on this thread, but less, EU rules on FOM are clear that if citizens are not self-supporting and do not have a job within 3 months, then individual governments can make them leave. This is not enforced in the UK, perhaps because we don't have an ID card system as other countries do. I believe there are also rules about checking criminal records but I can't remember off the top of my head. The full legislation about FOM is available on the Europarl website if you want to read it.

We have a Leaver! Welcome!

You do realise that the UK to check the identity of everyone who comes in other than in the back of a lorry? It is called 'checking passports'. And yeah, the UK can report EU nationals who do not support themselves. Whose fault is it that this does not happen? Hint: it's close to home...

And social housing is allocated on the basis of need, not nationality. As it bloody well should be.

So EU nurses are already leaving and not applying to work in the UK in the first place.

The plan to train UK nurses to replace them is not going well.
www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/fund-extra-nursing-training-places-dropped-universities

Some quotes:
"Universities are warning that the government is quietly reneging on its promise to provide 10,000 new nursing degree places, intended to relieve pressure on the NHS.

Student nurses must spend 50% of their degree working under supervision, usually in a hospital. But universities have told Education Guardian that not a single extra nursing training place has been funded or allocated for the future. It would cost £15m over five years to fund training placements for 10,000 new nurses, according to the Council of Deans of Health, the body that represents university faculties of nursing.

Applications to study nursing in the new 2017-18 academic year have slumped by 23% compared with last year, after the abolition of bursaries. The government said last year it would free up £800m and pay for an extra 10,000 places by ending bursaries and shifting student nurses to the standard system of £9,000-a-year tuition fees supported by loans. Angry academics now say this was a hollow promise.

...

Academics are warning that the government must train more nurses as there is no longer a reliable recruitment pipeline from the EU after the Brexit vote. The number of EU nurses registering to practise in the UK has fallen by 96% in less than a year. Only 46 EU nurses came to work in the UK in April compared with 1,304 last July, according to new statistics from the Nursing and Midwifery Council.

David Green, vice-chancellor of Worcester University, one of the leading institutions for nursing, says: “I don’t believe the policy intention with scrapping bursaries was to expand places; I think it was just to save money. The fact the training placements haven’t increased shows there was no plan to increase numbers.”

He explains: “We can give student nurses all the theory, but they need to actually work on a ward. There’s no money for training and we can’t take people on with a false prospectus. That’s the story across the country.”

Prof Steve West, vice-chancellor of the University of the West of England, which also has high-ranking nursing courses, agrees: “At the moment it is not clear how the 10,000 new places for nurses could happen. No new money has been announced so it isn’t clear how you fund an increase in what we currently have.” Universities are already struggling to protect hospital placements for existing students, he says. “As providers are squeezed their number one priority has to be giving care, and education slips down the agenda,” he says."