Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

EU citizens in UK will have to join special register and could be given ID cards

A few things that are ringing alarm bells for me

• the link with HRMC 'to check income over the last 5 years wo needing wages slips'. First of all, does it mean that there is a minimum wage that is asked from EU citizens? And what about people who aren't registered with HMRC (e.g. SAHM that came with their DH and have never worked in the country?)

Then why only the last 5 years? Atm when filling the PRC, you are asked to prove that you have 5 continuous years where you fulfil the criteria. These years could be right at the start of the time when you stayed in the UK. Or is she saying that actually it doesn't matter anymore?

• people who have applied for the PRC will have to do it again!! (Even though it looks like the requirements are exactely the same than for the PRC less the need for a health insurrance)

I think I will stand with my EU citizens and apply as a UK citizen.

I'm glad that my parents aren't alive for this. My dad was British but my mum Belgian, we had as a family lived in both countries before finally settling more permanently in the uk.

The lack of compassion for families caught up in this situation is disgusting. However, this government is distinctly lacking in any compassion for anyone who falls on hard times.

Anyone who chooses to come here to make their lives and any Brit who goes to EU to make their lives do so out of choice, their choice. No one should take it for granted in either circumstance that things won't change.

I would agree with you IF this had been about emigrating to any other country out of Europe.
However, the situation with the EU is totally different.

First of all NONE ever thought that a country would leave the EU because of all the advantages that it gives the country. Heck, even a few months before the referendum, most British people didn't think they would leave!
Second when I moved to the uk, in my mind it was like moving from let's say NI to England. It was NOT moving to a different country. There was NO specific requirement (bar working), no visa, no specific length of time to stay and I was to enjoy exactely the same benefits than a British citizen. I could go in and out of the UK to my home country, come back again if I wanted. That's certainly NOT like moving to another country like you would be as an immigrant (see the oarework, the restrictions involved etc...)

If people had ANY idea that things might change, they would have made different choices. They might have got married, they might not have chosen to settle in the uk (see the effect it would have had on the U.K. in the last 20+ years) or to stay only for a short period.
The UK has benefitted form a lot of advantages because EU citizens came and made their lives here rather than acting as expats only there for a short period.
It's rather crap to them tell them that they shouod have planned for the change and to stop grumbling.

It smacks of having your cake and eating it. AGAIN.

The only reason it feels full to some people is lack of funding for schools, the NHS and infrastructure.
Yes exactly. And it's pretty clear if the population was to stabilise or fall the government would be quick to cut spending in these areas so standards won't improve.

Women didn't have the vote for years after men did.
Should women have demanded that the vote be taken away from men ?
No, they demanded their own vote.

It's shit if you have fewer rights, sos but your chances of getting more rights won't improve if you reduce other people's

It's really worth remembering that as we are talking about the right of eu citizens in the uk we are also talking about the right of british citizens too. And these rights are been reduced wo even talking about it (see the ECJ, the fact that brits won't be able to go and work in the eu as easily etc etc).
Please also don't be fooled that it's OK for the uk to have extremely strict rules re immigration some of which don't comply with human rights and then expect eu countries to be all laid back and be happy to accept any brit who wants to move there.
In a work that is globalised, it doesn't make sense TBH.

Saying hi after a long time lurking on these threads.

I was so focussed the DUP deal yesterday that I missed the EU ID card stuff entirely. Is there anything in there about us Irish who live in the UK (in England, in my case) who have long had different rights to other EU citizens in the U.K.?

I was born in the north of Ireland, only hold an Irish passport, and no fucking way will I get an ID card. I'm not marking myself out as EU (so, Irish) when I'm back in Derry visiting relatives - what if the troubles restart?!

We've got plans to get out of dodge for a while, but unfortunately we can't implement them for at least 4 years due to interrupting my older children's education.

On the issue of wanting EU citizens in the UK to have the "same rights as us". There is a principle of reciprocity in the negotiations. So if these restricted rights are all EU citizens here are going to get, then British residents in the EU will get the same, and will therefore have fewer rights than other people in the country they are living in. How is that fair?

I have no sympathy for the 'you chose to move, things change, suck it up' pic. None. It's basically the same as saying 'sit right in your own country, don't strive for better, accept what you have, settle.' Yes, change happens. This however is unprecedented because the changes are retroactive and that is the deep injustice of it all. How can anyone not see that? When you lose a job, nobody demands back your last 20 years' wages. That is what these changes amount to.

No I don't think its tough luck I am sorry that this has happened for all of you. I wish it could be different for all of you. I am not in government, I did not vote for brexit or to remain. I cannot make your situations better, I wish I could but do not tar me with a 'don't care' attitude, I care a lot. I do not ask people to think about my situation, I made bad choices in my lifetime, I've had really bad things happen to me but I do not blame any of you for that or anyone else for that matter. I was unfortunate, I have had to cope on my own with 2 small children for years in my youth. But I do not.blame you. Xx

The only reason it feels full to some people is lack of funding for schools, the NHS and infrastructure
If population doesn't grow, there is no one to pay your pensions, the increase need for the NHS because population is getting older (nothing to do with 'immigrants' there) etc...

You can stop immigration completely but then are you also happy with no pensions etc...?

Just see Germany who has a very low natality rate. To be able to cope, they've ensure that immigrants can come in. To be able to have younger people working and contributing to the society. Tompay for pensions etc etc and to ensure that there is enough work force in general to keep the economy going.

Atm, wo immigration (and the babies from said immigrants), the uk population would be decreasing. The natality rate is very low from British families. Which would lead to the situation in Germany (or the one in Japan where they now have a situation of full employment which means that they cant fill the jobs - which is bad for the economy)

The issuenis so much more complex than just 'there is too many people. They are putting strain in the resources. Let's get rid of them'. That view is too simplistic.

Lewis explains apartheid britain:
www.channel4.com/news/brandon-lewis-we-want-eu-citizens-to-stay-here

sos I think what we're saying is, we are all responsible for each other, in every way, in every nationality in every ability level and every age, that is partly, though not perfectly, the EU was about, (and britain used to be about).

We want to be responsible for each other, because who knows what's round the corner.

sos that's not about you sorry.

It's about the general attitude and the way things are portrayed everywhere (incl and especially? In the media).
The fact that the focus is one side of things and gives a skewed image of what happens.
What you have said is just what yu can read everywhere. And it's wrong. Not even because it's not fair but because it doesn't give a true picture of the reality.
It's making 'immigrants' a special case, totally isolated from the 'british'. It's them and us. It's them (underclass not worth our energy etc)and us (the good ones, the ones with value).

Fwiw, don't even think that immigrants haven't been in the same situation than you. There are plenty of eu citizens stuck in this country because the dad is British, they can't move back to their country (unless they are also happy to not see their dcs). Single mums with young children depending on the help of the state. People who are chronically ill (like myself). Being an immigrant or a brit has nothing to do with the hardship we ALL encounter in life.

Brenda gets a bung too: < good day to hide this one>

The government has increased the Queen’s pay to £82m to help fund a £370m refurbishment of Buckingham Palace. The Crown Estate made a profit of £328.8m in the year to the end of March 2017 and the government is raising Her Majesty’s share – known as the sovereign grant – to 25% for the next 10 years. Buckingham Palace accounts also reveal the royals spent £4.5m on travel last year. Per mile, the royal train favoured by the ageing Queen and Prince Philip was the most expensive option, costing up to £900,000. The government’s Voyager “state jet” has been increasingly used by the royals for overseas trips, which the palace says is working out cheaper than charter flights
.

sos and redpeppers glad you're both on the thread.

That interview woman arrrgh.

Brexit is going to happen whether we want it or not.

It depends who 'we' is. If the country as a whole turns against it, are we still going to go ahead, because a slight majority won an advisory referendum, more than a year ago now, but still can't tell us exactly what we voted for? Apart from the £350 million a week for the NHS, which we aren't going to get.

We do have to control numbers coming in to the country. We cannot do that through the EU.

We could have done it anyway but we chose not to. It's always easiest to blame the EU.

Sos, from what you posted above, one of your parents was an immigrant to this country. Would you say that they made a poor choice to migrate? If not, why not?

So, what if we had had a far right wing government in between the time they immigrated, and now, and people from their original country were interned. It would seem like they had made a poor choice, then, wouldn't it? But that didn't happen, so you probably think they made a good choice.

So, basically, you are blaming people for not being able to predict that one of the most open and welcoming countries in the world would change to become far more closed and xenophobic.

And frankly, as a non-EU immigrant to this country, saying "peace and love to all" does not make the words you said before that any less hurtful.

Thanks woman glad to be here. Glad you are all here too. Xx my situation so different to lots on here. I maybe see things different because of my social status, because I have lived here all my life etc. I have noticed changes in my country. I have noticed changes in the world. They are changes I do not like. I love the fact this country is multicultural and will do anything to keep it so.
I'll tell you a true story now. Only a little incident of no consequence but to me a big thing. I refuse a lot if help and treatment through my own choice so as I am not a burden to the state and think when I really can't manage anymore then I will accept help. I go to a podiatrist free because it is in an attempt to keep me mobile and I have a lot of trouble with my feet. This service has been cut a lot by the NHS cos if funding. I feel bad every time I go thinking of others who no longer have this free and have to pay privately. I had a new podiatrist the other week. A Lithuanian, nice lady I thought and was happily chatting away. When all of a sudden she started to give me a tirade about 'how lucky ' I was to have this treatment free and how lucky I was to have people like her do it for me because without the migrants I wouldn't have it. She went on literally ranting at me that we should all pay as she in her country has to etc. So here I am having treatment on the NHS being lectured by a migrant worker who is employed by the NHS on what is and what is not my right. Tell me how would you all have felt? Yes she was a real exception to the rule. What would you have said back?

What if she hadn't been a "migrant worker" telling you how lucky you are to have your treatment feee on the NHS. Which you are, actually. In most countries of the world, your treatment would not be free. Would you accept it then?

And actually, I don't really see the point you are making. One opinionated Lithuanian woman tells you what she thinks, and you want to tell us that that says something about the EU?

No my father (unknown apart from being from the Punjab) was not an immigrant but a merchant seaman who landed at the docks, had his bit of fun and sailed away again. I was abandoned at a couple of days old after a failed attempt by my lady of the night mother to kill me.