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Brexit

Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2017 15:06

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit
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OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 17:23

Patty - is this the Wikipedia page you mentioned upthread? If so it very much confirms my experience of living somewhere (the US) where having state issued ID is not mandatory, but becomes the easiest thing to do. Eg the only acceptable ID for buying alcohol in my town (by law it has to be presented every time) is a driver's licence or a passport. I had to give my driving licence details in order to rent a musical instrument for my DS. To prove my address to get cable I needed a utility bill and my driving licence. Etc etc

BigChoc - that page says either a passport or ID card is required? I'm not surprised your previous card was low tech: things have moved on massively in the last couple of decades regarding technology and security features (many of which are codified in EU regulations, of which the UK has been one of the principal drivers - the irony...)

RedPeppers · 26/06/2017 17:24

I have to say I would like to know where this money is coming from. ID cards, the DUP, Brexit etc whe money doesn't grow on trees and there was none for the NHS, education, the police etc

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:25

Lh I'm just describing how it used to be in Germany and probably in most other E27 countries:
they managed a simple system, no knobs and whistles that did the job, at very low cost or inconvenience to the person wanting ID.

I remember I filled in a simple 1-page form with my personal details - no biometrics - and then waited 10 minutes for that to be printed out and my photo glued on in the machine.
That was at the local council office, so no trek to a big city far away.

OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 17:28

Sorry, I should have said in my post just now that people without a passport or driving licence could get an official ID card which fulfils the requirements of a driving licence for ID purposes (It's even issued by the DVLA equivalent)

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:28

I never actually had to use my ID card, which was the only one that showed I was resident in Germany.
I always used my passport.
However, people who use the state health service have a separate card for that

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2017 17:34

Opinion Piece in The Guardian from 2008

There can be few more astonishing confessions in modern politics than the prime minister's admission on Sunday that the government is unable to guarantee the security of our personal information on the state's databases. This admission shatters all the previous claims that the government has made that its obsession with creating vast databases can in any way improve the safety and security of the citizen.

Of course, he had little choice. Since the government first proposed the mother of all these databases, the ID card register, barely a month has passed without some monstrous data loss. It started with 25m tax credit records, went through innumerable lost laptop computers, included everybody from civil servants to ministers leaving records in trains, pubs and restaurants, and concluded this week with a lost flash drive compromising the security of the government's entire Gateway system. Soldiers' lives, our bank account, tax, passport and driving licence details, even the addresses of children, have all been compromised by these failures.

And another article in the Independent from 2008

^The identity card scheme was said to be in "intensive care" as leaked Whitehall documents showed it faced a new delay of two years.
The cards were set to be issued to Britons from 2010, when they apply to renew their passports, but private Home Office documents show the introduction is set to be put off until 2012.^

The likely postponement follows a series of fiascos over the security of personal data held by the Government.

But this one from 2006 is the best

THE GOVERNMENT’S SUGGESTION THAT ID CARDS ARE VOLUNTARY
Referring to the provision that would make ID cards obligatory on renewal of a passport…
"Not if your work takes you abroad, they aren’t [voluntary]. Not if your parents live abroad, or your spouse or partner is from abroad, they aren’t. Not if your children travel abroad and get sick or into trouble, they aren’t. And it is a novel interpretation of voluntary that the price of a foreign holiday is a requirement to be put on the National Identity Register."

GOVERNMENT ABUSE OF DATA IT HOLDS
"Now, after the way this government treated Martin Sixsmith, Pam Warren, Rose Addis and others, seeking information about them and using it to destroy their reputations, I would not trust them with data about my life."

"THE PLASTIC POLL TAX"
"Even on the government’s figures, the price of passports for a family of four will go from £134 today to £372. On the LSE’s figures, the cost could be as high as £300, per person, or more than £1,000 for a family of four. A plastic poll tax that no one will volunteer to pay."

GOVERNMENT INCOMPETENCE
"Even simple databases are beyond the Home Office, such as the firearms register which they were asked to set up 8 years ago which is still not operational. If they are incapable of setting up a firearms register in eight years, why should we imagine that they are capable of setting up the register required under this Bill in an acceptable and workable way?"

THE FACT THAT THE ID CARDS DATABASE WILL HAVE 20,000 ACCESS POINTS
"Microsoft’s national technology officer has said that a central identity database could worsen the very problems it was intended to prevent, such as terrorism and identity theft. He said that “ministers should not be building systems that allow hackers to mine information so easily.”

ID CARDS ARE CONSISTENT WITH OTHER ATTEMPTS TO RESTRICT BRITISH CIVIL LIBERTIES
"The way the government has gone about trying to deliver this Bill is of a piece with so much of what they have done to then hard-won rights of British people. The gradual erosion of jury trial. The attempt to criminalise free speech. Stopping some people making peaceful protests, while ignoring others inciting violence. Locking people up for months without charge or trial. The increasing retention of more and more data on innocent people – even DNA samples of innocent children."

What has changed?

Its all the more true than it was. The irony of who said this is staggering.

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Nickcaraway · 26/06/2017 17:35

One big problem with the UK proposal is that EU-settled status is only 'indefinite leave to remain'. If the EU citizen then spends two years outside the UK, they will lose 'UK settled status'. This is a huge deal and in no way comparable to UK rights - imagine losing your right to live in the UK if you lived outside the UK for two years!

The only way for 'EU Settled Status" to be secure is to take British citizenship. Ignoring the issues with passing the exam, in some cases e.g. Germany, taking British citizenship means giving up German citizenship. This is a huge deal psychologically (becoming a national of a country that doesn't want them) and also means giving up FoM throughout the EU.

And that's before I get on to the 5 years continuous residency requirement. This does not work for internationally mobile students/business etc.

Essentially, May has offered what is already the case for non-EU nationals with a few caveats. And she considers this a good offer.

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2017 17:36

ID cards are to David Davis as Heathrow is to Zac Goldsmith.

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BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:36

What disgusts me: AngryAngry

The Tory govt is using £2 billion of OUR money to save their political skins by BRIBING a disgusting sectarian party.

They are allied with this disgusting sectarian party, which has links to terrorists

They have deliberately evaded using the Barnett formula - designed to help fairness between the 4 countries in the UK - and hence favoured one UK country over the other 3

I knew the Tories were spivs. I hadn't realised before that they are also embezzlers and sectarian allies.

Next time the Fail and the Sun print umpteen pages about Corbyn' alleged IRA links, I want to ram a copy of this Tory-DUP agreement up Dacre's and Murdoch's arses

RedPeppers · 26/06/2017 17:39

nick TM intention has always been to treat eu citizens the same than non eu. We are all immigrants.

Nickcaraway · 26/06/2017 17:42

She is just vile. When I arrived in London in the 1990s, asylum seekers were vilified, then it became muslims, and now its anyone who isn't English.

missmoon · 26/06/2017 17:42

Does anyone know how the DUP deal can be compatible with the Barnett formula? Or is the Barnett formula now officially dead?

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:45

Actually, I now understand why howabout seems happy about the DUP deal:
It does make irrelevant Corbyn's alleged past links to people in IRA, Hamas etc

Otherwise, no one who is not on the far right would welcome the UK govt allying itself with the sectarian DUP:

The DUP has many ties to dangerous far right groups like Britain First, who tacitly encourage terrorism in the UK against ethnic minorities and the left
The DUP is closely allied to far right and white supremacist groups in the USA
The DUP channels money to UK groups secretly for them, using the NI exemption for foreign political donations

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:46

I think DD's objection to ID cards was only ever wrt UK citizens

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:49

I know, let's copy a simple ID system for all foreigners, wherever they came from

Stick a fucking yellow star on their chest Angry

woman12345 · 26/06/2017 17:52

ID cards were popular with the the DUP's racist friends in the apartheid regime. Pass laws criminalised black citizenry in an instant.

Totalitarian states create new crimes. ID crime will be a useful new one.

But if they do want to be fascists they need to be a bit better organised than this crew.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2017 17:52

DD must have written this grovelling article about himself in the Sun:
It bigs him up as some SAS (reservist) hero who will smash Barnier - see hysterical cartoon - and states

"David Davis has so far not put a foot wrong in Brexit negotiations" GrinGrinGrin

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3882578/the-tories-need-to-wake-up-and-appoint-a-proper-leader-david-davis-is-just-the-man/

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2017 17:53

It doesn't matter if we lose EU citizens data or have abuses of government or incompetence does it Big Choc?

Which is part of my point.

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Motheroffourdragons · 26/06/2017 18:08

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Motheroffourdragons · 26/06/2017 18:11

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RedToothBrush · 26/06/2017 18:13

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
No10 correction: Funding is not contingent on power sharing being resumed. If executive not restored, then a committee decide on spending

The incentive for the DUP to agree to reinstalling Storming is....

Err...

Ermmm...

Er...

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Cailleach1 · 26/06/2017 18:13

"David Davis has so far not put a foot wrong in Brexit negotiations"

That is 'cos he hasn't moved a foot. The EU have done all the groundwork and that is what the Con's are banking on.

About the Con's bribing the DUP. To be fair, they probably didn't have to. The DUP were probably first out of the hatches with extortionate demands. A bit will make up for the half billion pound hole because of a dodgy RHI scheme. It is alleged by some that Arlene's involvement was possibly either dodgy or incompetent. It is one of the reasons for the breakdown of Stormont. Arlene won't stand aside for the duration of an independent investigation into it. Now she is running the whole country I'd say there is reduced chance of her being less bullish. I don't know where making any progress at Stormont stands now.

sodablackcurrant · 26/06/2017 18:15

So a totally unnecessary GE has led to billions being paid to those that very few actually voted for.

There could be trouble ahead for the GFA aswell, as the UK Government is supposed to be totally impartial in relation to NI politics. Hmm.

I just hope dissidents do not arise from their peaceful slumber now. And the marching season is upon us too. Yikes.

Motheroffourdragons · 26/06/2017 18:15

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OlennasWimple · 26/06/2017 18:17

Anyone else hoping for a cold, wet summer rather than the long, hot days that so often lead a small fracas to turn into something much more dangerous?