Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

We have just got our residence cards in France (titre de séjour permanent) and had to give biometrics photos / fingerprints.
Have to say it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

How would I feel about having an ID cards in Europe compared to the UK?

Let me think about this...

What is the pay like for essential government employed techies? Are they competitive with the private sector so they attract the best? What legal protection do I have? And just how batshit crazy is my current government? Also, am I white, Asian, black or have a funny 'foreign' name at a time when not being 'indigenious' is an issue? Just how lax on deregulation and money laundering is my government? What are laws on data protection and what are future laws likely to be?

All these things affect my thinking.

ID card in France versus ID card in current UK are not equal things.

We had a discussion about ID cards back last autumn. Some for, some against, and no particular split between leavers and remainers. Since we increasingly have to produce ID for this that and the other, a proper card would make more sense. I am on the fence on this one. As long as it wasn't made a crime not to carry one, someone contesting this caused the wartime/postwar ones to be scrapped.

Surely it would have to be ID cards for everyone then?

My point exactly. To get through a minority parliament...

I don't have a problem with ID cards per se. I have a problem with this government and its ability to implement an ID card system that is fair, affordable, non-discriminatory and above all competent.

The problem was never really the cards, per se. It was the clusterfuck enormo-database they wanted to put behind the card.

Trying to create an ID database for EU citizens would also invoke the EUs own data protection laws (google Max Schreems for the lolz on that one). The EU has to guarantee it's own citizens that their personal data is secure.

Although just remember. Once you have ID cards, you also get a law requiring you to carry yours at all times. No ifs. No buts. No maybes. Quite aside from the potential for stop and search abuses and racial profiling, wait until people whose handbags are stolen find themselves liable for a £100 fine for "failing to produce a valid identification document when requested".

Spell your name wrong or put the wrong biometric data on your card?

Is that Tuttle, or Buttle ?

Name changing of course is more of a problem for women than men. And expensive.

I didn't change my name in part for reasons of spelling and cost/ convenience for a reason. I still have been told by banks that I HAD to on marriage. By women.

As long as it wasn't made a crime not to carry one

ID cards are worthless if people aren't compelled to carry them.

Remember the entire purpose of this government is to weed out the 'undeserving' and 'non conforming'. In the pursuit of profit.

Red

did you miss my "Brazil" reference ?

Remember, Jean Charles de Menezes had his head removed with seven bullets because a policeman needed a piss. So don't ever try to tell me how unlikely or "impossible" anything is.

Michel Barnier @ michelbarnier
EU goal on #citizensrights: same level of protection as in EU law. More ambition, clarity and guarantees needed than in today's UK position.

Is that Tuttle, or Buttle
Have you seen Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil'?

Cross post there LH

Jesus that film plot is something else. Btw in case anyone is in any doubt, I'm even more anti-ID card than anti-brexit.

Olenna I live in Germany and I do not need an ID card - just my passport.
In 2000, when the Single Market and 4 Freedoms came in, German ID cards for E27 citizens were abolished

In previous jobs here, from the late 1980s, I did have an ID card, which was just a card stating I had right to stay in Germany.
It had no fingerprints or biometric data, just a photo, name, date and place of birth.

The local council office created it in 10 minutes when I gave them 2 photos. It cost me 10 or 15 Euros, can't remember exactly.
I had to renew it every 5 years if I wanted to stay on, but no fee and it was very simple - just bringing a statement of my annual salary from my employer

Jesus that film plot is something else

It doesn't do it justice. You need to see De Niro as a guerrilla plumber !

and Michael Palin as the happy torturer and the 'snip snip' plastic surgery pastiche. Work of genius. Now it seems a bit like a documentary of brexit britain.

imo, that cheap and simple ID card would be fine - it was basically just a piece of paper with some bump, plus my photo stuck on.
A one-off fee of £15 say and free renewal is completely reasonable for E27 expats

I don't think a more complicated biometric one would be worth spending billions, considering how few people would both commit ID fraud and not be able to fake the biometric one.

imo, that cheap and simple ID card would be fine

Re-read the previous ID cards debacle debate. The eye-watering cost (mind you, now we're throwing £2 billion, it probably seems a snip) was for the IT costs of building the database behind it. Massively overengineered (but underbid).

Bear in mind we are living in a country where someone can "forget" to add VAT to the Olympics bill, and nobody notices. How much do you think can go wrong before people do notice ?

LH In the E27 countries I've been in, the ID system seems to be rather like carrying driving licenses:
i.e. Most people have ID in their wallet, but may not have the wallet always.
You don't really have to carry ID all the time, but if the police ask to see it, then you have 48 hrs to produce it.
You need to bring ID if you wish to access certain state services, or if you ever talk to a bureaucrat, bank, lawyer, sign contracts that need witnesses etc

Id cars are very usual in France. Actually you are supposed to have a form of Id with you at all time.
They are free fir children and free at renewal if you still have the old one. Even if you pay for it, it's still cheaper than a passport.

ID cards do not have to be expensive!! Making them expensive is a government choice.

I have no issue with ID cards and have always been amazed that here a CC could be enough. Who on earth says it seems yours???
Same with photos that have to be approved etc...
The result is the very lengthy interview when you do ask fir your first adult passport because no one is sure that you are who you say you are :(

Fwiw ID cards have never stopped terrorism etc so that would be a very poor excuse

The trouble is I don't think they are thinking cheap ID cards... That's the point.

Besides cost of a ID card versus cost of 'health tourism'. Hmm

Why though? Is the point to isolate a part ignore the population and take the risk of massive civil unrest ? Which would happen I feel people aren't able to access rental properties, NHS etc wo an ID card.

sos Living in Germany, I have - currently - the same rights as a German citizen, except that I can't vote in GEs, only in local and EU elections.
So, equivalent voting rights to an E27 expat in the UK.

I pay the same and have the same rights wrt healthcare, state and private pensions, care insurance - a great idea btw brought in about 20 years ago to help tackle the elderly care funding issue.

I have the same rights wrt renting / buying property or anything else. Today I've just opened a brokerage account at a bank, same terms as a German would have

ID cards are also useless for demonstrating entitlement to NHS treatment, as they don't prove habitual residence. You could have one identifying you as British citizen and it'll tell them nothing about whether you've just returned from 2 years working abroad or not.