Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Of course, what identification 'to stop fraud' will be necessary for Brits?

And how much will it cost? Potentially a barrier to the poorest...

The government will use Brexit as a way to impose ID cards on everyone

as predicted last year.

And how much will it cost?

£2 billion ?

I'm so surprised I am positively shaking with shock in my thirty second eyelash Lurking.

How long before ID cards to log into the internet?

I wonder what Gary Hart makes of all this ?

But what Peter Foster and others are missing is that EU citizens (and their non-EU family) already have to give biometrics (ie fingerprints and photo) to get their residence card (which is an ID card by any other name)

So this proposal continues the status quo rather than create some new process

Of all the things to be discomforted by, this isn't it

So sad.

"Again, they've established their lives together in good faith, complying with the relevant law. "

As have we all.

I don't understand why there is no more public outrage about any of this. We are probably not seen as underodoggy enough or something.

We came in good faith. Entered friendships and marriages, became families with roots in more than one country, contributed both through tax and volunteering as well as professional skills in local communities and industries.

Now we're told to put up of f off. Second class citizens who will have to prove their worth and rights at every step. .

My dh and dc are British, I'm not. Awaiting my citizenship for which I applied before Easter. It's taking a long time, which worries me. We are planning to leave the UK but if we leave and I have not been granted citizenship for some reason I will not be able to return with my family to live here if we had to for various reasons.

Dh and I won't be able to look after mil when the time comes.

It doesn't somehow seem to so bad to most people but if you think about the bureaucratic walls that are pulled up within families where one partner is from the EU. I mean baring in mind that we built our lives here in the UK in the knowledge that we were welcome and had the right to be here as equals (or near equals).

Got your point choc and agree British citizens should have more rights than we have and EU citizens should be equal to that. So perhaps we should argue as strongly about our rights then. No one has so far done a lot about our rights.

Not sure ID cards for all citizens such a bad idea. Will have to think a bit about that one.

Olennas
But what Peter Foster and others are missing is that EU citizens (and their non-EU family) already have to give biometrics (ie fingerprints and photo) to get their residence card (which is an ID card by any other name)

No, for the EEA PR no BRP is needed. EU citizens only need to give biometrics for the citizenship application (AN form).

I was about to say how do ID cards and NI fit together? And how do ID cards fit with current Labour's thinking, especially with regard to the Lord's. It's not a manifesto pledge. Will it be pushed through under terrorism measures? Do Tory MPs even support the idea? How much will ID cards cost to ordinary British citizens or will we get them free? What measures to ensure identity theft doesn't occur will be in place? I look forward to hearing about security on that database particularly in view of the fact that MPs emails got hacked just yesterday. I can't wait to tell DH about the idea of this on a technical level. He'll piss his pants and ask how much they are paying the developers on that system and then laugh. A bit like he laughs at the idea of getting a frictionless customs border up and running any time soon.

The mere idea of this could get sticky. Never mind the practical stuff. These people have nfi.

We have just got our residence cards in France (titre de séjour permanent) and had to give biometrics photos / fingerprints.
Have to say it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Do UK citizens get equal rights where they have settled in EU? Do they have to have ID cards? Do they have to do what their EU citizens do? I have no idea.

Process for applying for a residence permit as the family member of an EU national

Red - When we were on the brink of having ID cards before they were going to cost about £45 IIRC

Got your point choc and agree British citizens should have more rights than we have and EU citizens should be equal to that. So perhaps we should argue as strongly about our rights then. No one has so far done a lot about our rights

Because there's something peculiarly English about suffering, as long as foreigners suffer.

A story I have told a few times. In 1977, we lived two doors away from our local Conservative councillor. We lived in a longish road (420 houses) which was intersected by a few other roads.

When the plans for a street party for the Queens (Silver) jubilee were being drawn up, this councillor said that our stretch of road (about 100 houses) should not be included in the street party as "there were too many Asians" living there.

We never got a street party - including his kids. (Although as my DM pointed out, he enjoyed the official council one ...)

(The footnote to this story is that my Dad managed to get planning permission for our ludicrously large extension by pretending the lack of space was forcing us to move, and ensuring a steady parade of his Indian co-workers turned up to "view" the property. Said councillor personally spoke to the planning department ... ).

This was London, btw.

Not sure ID cards for all citizens such a bad idea. Will have to think a bit about that one

Let us know how much you are willing to pay for them as well. Plus replacements.

I'd guess they'd be pegged at £80 for your first one, and maybe £50 for a replacement.

So for a family of 5, that's £400.

The UK is unusual in not requiring ID cards. Brits living in other bits of the EU have to have them if that requirement is in place for nationals of that country

mother NS is already demanding wur £3bn. Luckily enough there are 4 City deals currently under negotiation plus a bunch of support for the oil and gas sector which will doubtless be announced when politically expedient.

Not sure ID cards for all citizens such a bad idea. Will have to think a bit about that one.

Your biometric data will be uploaded to an insecure database vulnerable to ISIS and Russian hackers and the government will be too incompetent and bureaucractic for you to correct errors or fight in court identity theft. Spell your name wrong or put the wrong biometric data on your card? It's not their fault, it's up to you to prove your identity and their mistake. In the meantime, no NHS or benefits for you whilst you pay for an expensive legal challenge (if you can afford it as there is no legal aid now). Don't forget you also can't get a job in this period and your employer might have to let you go.

Remember the government are also keen on removal of the Human Rights Act which could lead to you losing the right to fight such injustices in the name of 'national security' and the greater good of the country. It's not just terrorists, it's potentially rich criminals who might want a patsy to hide their financial crime.

ID cards fab and totally unproblematic to me.

We have not been required to have ID cards in France; our UK passports are sufficient. The titre de séjour cards that we have just got (our choice to ask for them) are EU / EEA ones and will probably have to be replaced in due course. They were free.

According to Wikipedia (usual caveats) ID documentation is optional in 12 of the current 27 member states.

I don't have a problem with ID cards per se. I have a problem with this government and its ability to implement an ID card system that is fair, affordable, non-discriminatory and above all competent.

If this lot invited me to a beverage related celebratory event in a beverage-producing facility, I just wouldn't go.

Spell your name wrong or put the wrong biometric data on your card?

Is that Tuttle, or Buttle ?

The government will use Brexit as a way to impose ID cards on everyone OR will allow EU citizens to be potentially exposed to discrimination by forcing them to prove ID that British citizens don't have to. I rather suspect that the latter is not possible in conjunction with an EU deal and in EU law.

Surely it would have to be ID cards for everyone then? There is zero point in forcing only certain groups to show ID to receive free NHS treatment for example. What would stop people from simply claiming to be British if Brits don't need ID to prove their nationality and country of residence? As always the government's proposals are an utter shambles not very well thought through.