Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Faisal Islam‏*@faisalislam*
Corbyn now quoting Osborne editorial saying the PM vetoed a unilateral reassurance to EU citizens otherwise agreed by Cabinet a year ago

Matthew Holehouse‏*@mattholehouse*
May appeared to say third country nationals dependent on EU citz can stay i.e. Zambrano families. Oftem vulnerable ppl - children/disabled

Why can't EU citizens just have exact rights of British citizens? So much easier. I don't think they should have more rights just the same rights.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/621848/60093_Cm9464_NSS_SDR_Web.pdf
Government paper on EU nationals.

Not sure if this has been posted yet.

I just read Theres May's government was told of the fire risk relating to flammable external surfaces on high rise buildings such as Grenfell Tower just one month before the terrible incident.

In a statement, the Association of British Insurers said that it had been calling on the Government to review its standards for building regulations for the last eight years and that it had issued a warning in May specifically relating to the combustible external cladding on buildings like the Grenfell Tower and how it can cause fire to spread.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/grenfell-tower-fire-insurance-industry-fire-risk-warning-cladding-sprinklers-safety-deaths-a7807891.html

Of course in May the government were busy tracking polls and feeling smug about their impending landslide. Too busy to be ealing with citizen's safety.

Sheffield that's terrible!

Can't load that link Red for some unknown reason.

Can't load that link Red for some unknown reason.

Theresa Villers (CON) asked for an agreement on this BEFORE other issues are settled...

Interesting question to be raised by a Tory.

From the government paper

58. The arrangements set out above will be enshrined in UK law and enforceable through the UK judicial system, up to and including the Supreme Court. We are also ready to make commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement which will have the status of international law. The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) will not have jurisdiction in the UK.

Good luck with that.

Definitely no ECJ then. EU won't accept that. Does May walk out now then lol?!

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*
New streamlined registration. But the brave folks who got perm residence (& survived the 85 page form) must apply again. Not so EU friendly

Genius. Not bureaucratic nonsense. AT ALL.

May is definitely stuck in the mud already.

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*
EU family rights also restricted. Note distinction here suggesting EU nationals may have diff rights from Brits in future. Will worry EU

Relevant paragraph Alex Barker highlights, with their bold - :

family dependants who join a qualifying EU citizen in the UK before the UK’s exit will be able to apply for settled status after five years (including where the five years falls after our exit), irrespective of the specified date. Those joining after our exit will be subject to the same rules as those joining British citizens or alternatively to the postexit immigration arrangements for EU citizens who arrive after the specified date

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*

Some good footnote action. the "direct dependants in the ascending line" mentioned here refers to unborn children

I have friends who went through the residence card nightmare. Am so glad I hung fire...

The new card better be reeeeaaaallllyyyy affordable.

Faisal Islam‏@ faisalislam

"UK will seek an ongoing arrangement akin to the EHIC scheme as part of negotiations on our future arrangements with the EU" - ie needs deal

No security for those British pensioners in Spain yet then.

Faisal Islam‏@ faisalislam

Government tells EU citizens currently putting in a record number of permanent resident applications: "there's no need"...

Government tells all Cabinet ministers and Whitehall to prepare for "no deal" but EU citizens here "there's no need"...

Position paper doesnt rule out that these rights will eventually have to be determined unilaterally

So what was the point of 'bargaining chips'? Remind me.

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*
"Grace period" for EU nationals arriving post-Brexit. Will help transition negotiation - it amounts to free movement for up to 2 yrs

Students are allowed to stay in the country to finish course -- but not clear whether they can stay to work.

Peter Foster‏*@pmdfoster*

Child benefit export can continue but ONLY for those already doing it. Will post-Brexit kids of those that qualify be eligible? Not clear.

Here's the 80% voted for Brexit at last election again....

twitter.com/BBCNews/status/879345182734303232

Why can't EU citizens just have exact rights of British citizens? So much easier. I don't think they should have more rights just the same rights.

The EU Treaty gives EU nationals working in other EU countries certain rights to have non-EU family members with them. Without having to earn a certain amount. They don't apply to people who have never moved country, though. The UK would have the option of allowing British citizens in the UK the same rights as EU nationals, which some countries eg Belgium and Portugal do, but instead we've gone for the lowest common denominator. Given ourselves fewer rights. Those of us who haven't exercised our free movement rights can't be helped by EU law in that respect, because it doesn't apply if you've only ever lived in your home state.

At the moment, British citizens would need to be earning 18.6k to sponsor a non-EU spouse, or have 62.5k in savings if not earning. So if we give all EU nationals the same rights as British citizens, ie reduce their rights, you're going to get EU nationals who are earning eg 17k, sponsored their non-EU spouses to come and join them in good faith, maybe been here a few years... who are stuck.

Just to complicate matters, there are also British citizens living elsewhere in the EU with their non-EU partners who won't be able to meet those income requirements either. Again, they've established their lives together in good faith, complying with the relevant law. So there is also the question of what we do about them, if they're not allowed to stay in the other countries!

Nick Macpherson‏*@nickmacpherson2*
£1 billion for Ulster is just a downpayment. DUP will be back for more...again and again... They have previous in such matters. #profligacy

Most payments within the first two years. GE in 2 years or another ransom note

Peter Foster‏*@pmdfoster*

Finger-printing EU nationals? No different from say, getting a US Visa...but it will feel bad. Symbol that easy-come, easy go days are gone

Relevant paragraph:
35. Our aim is to make the application process as streamlined and user-friendly as possible for EU citizens and their families lawfully resident in the UK. We intend to use existing government data, such as income records, to minimise the burden of documentary evidence required (for example, to prove continuous residence). It is likely that those EU citizens and their family members who wish to take advantage of the streamlined digital process will need to provide evidence of their passport to prove their identity. The Home Office may also need to capture evidence of EU citizens’ biometric information during the application process to protect against fraud.

Seeing a lot of people asking if Arlene Foster will be rounding this £1 billion up to £1.6 billion. Megalolz.

ID cards for EU nationals? Will Brits also have to provide one to access care too? The potential for discrimination here is not good.

9. Obtaining documentation showing their settled status will enable EU citizens resident here to carry on living here lawfully. Moreover it will help them to demonstrate to employers and other service providers their ongoing rights to be in the UK and to enjoy entitlements to benefits and public services. It will demonstrate (to employers, for example) that the holder continues to enjoy these rights, irrespective of any different migration controls the Government may introduce with regard to newly arriving EU citizens following the UK’s departure from theEU.

sos May is trying to remove significant rights from E27 citizens in the UK
The fact that she has already removed these rights from UK citizens does not interest the EU - they rightly wish to protect their citizens.

May is trying to harmonize downwards, because she always wants to remove rights
If you feel it is unfair for for UK citizens to have fewer rights, then campaign for harmonization of rights upwards, not downwards

Just to repeat that:

The government will use Brexit as a way to impose ID cards on everyone OR will allow EU citizens to be potentially exposed to discrimination by forcing them to prove ID that British citizens don't have to. I rather suspect that the latter is not possible in conjunction with an EU deal and in EU law.

I hope anti-ID card MP David Davis is sitting comfortably.

Imagine having to get your ID card out 'to stop fraud' or be refused NHS treatment.