Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Charterists wanted to change the political arena. Corbyn wants a different type of politics. This frightens a lot of people. They emphasis his communist leanings in an effort to scare people more. Visions of mass riots are already in peoples thoughts as regards all the marches taking place at the moment.

Extract from this Sunday Times article
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news-review/the-prime-minister-ruined-by-her-grusome-twosome-v9gvg68bc
The prime minister ruined by her gruesome twosome

Theresa May was undone by two chief advisers who ruled the world of No 10 by fear. Her former speechwriter unpicks the flaws that led her to give them so much power

Is it to recast May by blaming her advisors for previous fallings and capable of redemption? If that's the intention it doesn't really work and it just makes May look extraordinarily weak. Which might be the point too I guess.

Otto English @ Otto_English
Is there a Godwin's Law equivalent for invoking Churchill in every argument?

A lot of people kindly suggesting Otto's Law... but I'm far too bashful to accept. How about The Kipper Principle... in their memory

Grey Cells (73%) @ greycells
They show an astonishing lack of understanding - Churchill wanted a federated EU – a 'United States of Europe'.

[RTB: Ian Hislop's documentary this week about the first immigration debate also talks about how Churchill left the Tory party to join the liberals in 1904 for twenty years in part because of its immigration policy. Churchill favored the more Victorian open door policy with no control on immigration. Good programme btw]]

Otto English @ Otto_English
Not even 10.30 and already I've formulated a theory. #TheKipperPrinciple

The Kipper Principal (aka Otto's law)
As an online discussion about Britain or British notions of nationhood or identity continues, the probability of a comparison involving Churchill approaches.

John MacAskill @ JohnGMacA
Excellent result of months of study. One improvement may be the words 'often erroneous' between 'involving' and 'Churchill'.

I was wrong about the lib dems abandoning the second referendum - cable was on peston saying that even though it might have cost them votes in the last election it is still a sound proposition.

Peston on Sunday @ pestononsunday
Lord Patten compares Theresa May's interaction with the public as similar to 'being a doctor and not liking the sight of blood'

Jim Pickard @ pickardJE
Chris Patten: "I don't think it's very seemly to dance on Theresa May's grave...if she goes there's chaos." #Peston

Sophy ridge on Sunday @ ridgeonsunday
"I've seen nothing like this" - @Conservatives MP Ken Clarke says current Tory problems are at their worst in 50 years #Ridge

And all because the Tories have underestimated the real power and feelings of the 'ordinary working class'.

David Davis yabbering away and creating false points of contention. All to feed to the electorate at home.

I wonder if the ECJ was not mentioned by the Council as Davis said? In any event they delegate the work to the Commission and they have to ensure they comply with the treaties. They are bound by the treaties. Hence the cutoff point for rights of EU citizens will be 2019. The UK are members 'till then. The EU parliament also voted on the ECJ protecting the rights of citizens. He omitted to mention them at all.

What is all this about different desired transition periods? The EP also voted on a maximum 3 year transition.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/05/european-parliament-red-lines-resolution-brexit-negotiations

Also May's 'generous' offer went down like a lead balloon for two reasons. Firstly it was the wrong forum. It may be the main and only issue for the UK, but the EU have a forum for negotiations. It is not the Council's main business and they certainly have no intention of making it their main business. Michel Barnier is the main negotiator. That is the forum for the Brexit issues like this.
Secondly, it is less than the EU have already put forth. So, wrong forum and a damp squib.

So creating delusions for everyone at home.

I read that the Con's were furious about the clause providing for a smooth ride in the case of a vote for the reunification of Ireland and NI. Seemingly they were ringing around to pressure for it's omission. If you take into account the GFA provides for a UI only in the event of a democratic vote in Irl and NI, I cannot fathom what their beef is. Or maybe they cannot turn the thumbscrews of a thread NI would be high and dry if a vote came up. And considering it will come into effect when the UK have left and is an EU provision, it ain't their beeswax anyway.

Davis still trying to give the impression he is negotiation with the German car makers. When Irl have said they will block any deal if GFA not upheld. 26 other countries. And if rights have to be referred to each country to agree with? He is giving impression that trade negotiations will be happening in October when he goes to Germany and meets the car makers . He is bs ing again. Talk big at home. About boll*cks.

Sos welcome back too!

And all because the Tories have underestimated the real power and feelings of the 'ordinary working class

Think you are right there. And a lot of us identify as working class. Even if we are partial to the odd book and dill and cucumber salad

Visions of mass riots are already in peoples thoughts as regards all the marches taking place at the moment

I think there are been more mass marches than I can remember in years here in Britain, especially since Trump, all peaceful, and many really big. (except EDL in Manchester) The EDL did try to attack 'Stand up to Racism' in London in spring. The police were brilliant, and it all went off peacefully.

I think that Corbyn is just in the tradition of socialist campaigner and organiser like:
Annie Bessant, (match girls strike)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Besant
John Burns (dockers strike)
www.unionhistory.info/timeline/1880_1914.php

If we were taught trade union, health and safety and welfare state history, and if there were films and TV programmes about them, rather than wall to wall war, property and cake porn, perhaps people would be a bit more respectful of how rights have been won, and at what cost to the individuals and groups who fought for them.

Place marking for later

Waves frantically to Woman12345

I think the cult-hero thing around JC makes me a bit uncomfortable.

I just think if you put someone on a pedestal and they fall off, they'll fall hard

I have a feeling that like the lib dems, JC will be held to far higher standards than TM.

He has done a fantastic job of getting people engaged in politics and I like him. But I'm worried that once it is discovered that he has feet of clay it will be catastrophic for the labour party.

Can anyone explain Jeremy Corbyns pro leave stance.

On the face of it I would think he would be pro Europe. He's a socialist m, much of Europe is considerably more socialist than the UK.

Why is he a leaver sorry for being thick, I just struggle to get me head round Corbyn

Woman I'm not sure there is a huge amount of room for those topics in the Gove syllabus.

Interesting that even Patten, the soft liberal's favourite Tory, equates the end of a Conservative administration with chaos. They really do think that periods of non-Tory dominance are weird exceptions.

Agree totally woman but precisely because the trade unions and pressure groups have been pushed to the background now they are resurfacing because of the state of the country people are fearful. Too long has workers rights, health and safety been out of the public eye. To think a terrible thing like Grenfell was the only way to bring injustices and inequalities to light again.

Yes, I have been really disappointed by Corbyn on Brexshit. I am uncomfortable by how many left-wing remainers seem to just sweep his at best lukewarm remain campaigning under the carpet. How will he implement his manifesto when the economy tanks with Brexit?

When, there is quite a strong left wing antipathy to the EU, i have several very left friends who voted Leave. They see the EU as a corporate free trade stitch up, and would cite the inadequate response to the refugee crisis, the Fortress Europe mentality which shuts out developing countries from trade and economic migration, and the treatment of Greece during the financial crisis as reasons for their vote.

I am uncomfortable by how many left-wing remainers seem to just sweep his at best lukewarm remain campaigning under the carpet

I know it's so maddening. The man is actually really good at campaigning. He did fuck all during the run up to the referendum.

Yes I too, worry whether Jezza can now keep and inspire his new supporters to fulfill what I think was a manifesto for the majority of the people. He is going to have to be careful not to make big changes in his party I.e get rid of Tom Watson. He really does need to keep the party united. He needs the middle as well as the left. Can he manage to do that is the big question.

Perhaps we need a modern "re-imagining" of Hotel California ?

Hotel D'Euro ?

Where you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

bad Just like the Tory hard right are prevented by EU law from stripping out all safety, environmental and workers' rights - their "Bonfire of red tape" -
so are the harder left prevented from achieving some of their dreams, e.g. of renationalisation - the single market rules would require them to allow private firms to compete with the state firm.

Jezza will always go by the will of the people so any thoughts he won't leave EU are pie in the sky. He WILL abide by that democratic vote. No matter how people can see leaving is perhaps not a good idea after all. I think he will be a soft brexit though.

On the "Jeremy corbyn is a creep for going to Glastonbury" thread, some posters have said they (or their friends - I can't remember which) saw him campaign eloquently for remain but it received little media coverage. This is now third/fourth hand information so no idea about the veracity but it doesn't seem implausible

Bigchoc yes exactly he has to leave EU to fulfil all of his manifesto.

No, LH. The EU are taking the UK at it's word that it is going to leave and be a third country. The problem is the UK seem to think the logical consequences of this should not apply, and leaving and becoming a third country is a special punishment initiated by the EU. I think in essence the UK think the EU will rearrange things so the same benefits apply without the obligations or following the rules.

Well pain when JC was asked before referendum about his thoughts on EU he said he was 7/10 for staying but with lots of changes needed by EU.

So things change and minds change as time goes by, but it is true he did not get a lot, if any, coverage of his campaign to remain. But he never gets coverage of the good things he does only the bad things.