Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Many of the Lexiters reasons would be opposed by many wc voters.

1. Fortress Europe is to reduce the effects of globalisation on EU workers, by reducing direct competition with workers in China, India etc on ultra low wages - avoiding a race to the bottom.

We've already seen the Western wc are those who have lost most from globalisation, because of the supply of v low workers in developing countries.
The wc mostly think they've been hit hard enough - but that the mc keep pushing the interests of developing countries over the poorest workers in the West.

2. Why FOM ? The wealthy have freedom of movement for their capital A manufacturer has freedom of movement for their products A service-provider has freedom of movements for their services.

Under free trade, they can all take their money-making assets and move them around to make the most money

Without freedom of movement, workers cannot do the same with their Labour
That is unfair.

3. Acceoting refugees requires democracy assent: the people in almost all EU countries are vehemently against allowing more refugees from the Middle East / North Africa

In fact, this is the greatest threat to EU unity and is what is principally fueling the far right in the EU. It's just too dangerous to ride roughshod over such overwhelming public opinion

Even Merkel with her previously incredible popularity in Germany, was hammered in many local elections before she changed tack - otherwise she wouldn't be favourite to win the coming GE here.

4. Bailing out Greece is again v unpopular with those taxpayers who would fund it - many UK Leavers too wanted to avoid subsiding Greece and Southern Europe.

German taxpayers have clearly said they don't want to fund complete debt forgiveness - they have already funded a lot - because they resent having to pay for a country that doesn't collect taxes andmade seriously profligate spending decisions in earlier years.

The German left, especially SPD, have been encouraging Greece to leave the Euro, but Greece refuses refuse - they want taxpayers from Germany and the other EU countries to pay for wiping out the debt

I'll stick my oar in about Corbyn's EU campaign. I saw him 4 times on the trail. 3 times he barely mentioned the EU - the 4th time he didn't talk about it at all despite the accompanying MP's prompting and interjections.

Well posting felt weird after lurking on these threads since the start.

pain We've seen how JC can campaign when he really wants to.

He said he was 70% in favourite of Remain,
but I think his main concern was to avoid Labour taking the political hit in the EU Ref, as they did in the Scottish Indy ref - Cameron deliberately abused Labour cooperation then and this led to Labour being hammered in Scotland.

JC did a very few appearances, low key, nothing like his fire in the GE.
The Labour Remain campaign said JC's team actually deliberately hindered them, which is what mainly sparked the PLP anger against JC afterwards, the resignations and the leadership challenge.

I saw Corbyn twice in the run up to the ref. I found him quite engaging and refreshing because he acknowledged his euroscepticism but felt this wasn't the time or way to leave and was a lot more genuine than other campaigners.

But then he instantly called for article 50 to be triggered with no preparation and I still to this day don't know if that was a put pressure on as the opposition leader or if he's really as insane as the ultras.

< waves to seahorses > Don't be shy Now you've dipped in a toe, do keep posting

I think JC has no great feelings either way about Brexit.

However, he sees it as a once in a lifetime opportunity for his wing of the left to achieve power and stay for a generation, to totally reshape the country back to a fully funded Welfare state and nationalized utilities, transport etc

So, he is just prioritising the party political interests of Labour.
The Tories got us into this mess for party political reasons, so he & his supporters could feel justified in doing the same

That may mean that he avoids bringing down the govt until some time after Brexit has happened
So, the Tories keep the poisoned chalice and are blamed for all the negative consequences

I know someone who was going to vote leave, but voted remain after hearing JC speak. He said that JC was the only person speaking about remain who seemed acknowledged the issues my friend saw with the EU. JC saying, yes there are issues and yes I have been against the EU in the past, but on balance for all these reasons I think we should now stay, was a very powerful message for someone who was concerned about the EU.

The thing is labour were an absolute mess at the time, with infighting from every side. Corbyn was not solely responsible for that, though I agree he could have done better. He does also have a problem with not being very good at campaigning for things he does not fully believe in. I think this made it hard for him during the referendum campaigning and when he did speak his message was not a simple one to put into soundbites. Besides, none of the papers or TV covered anything he said at the time anyway and he hadn't yet gained the online support base he now has.

I don't think he did or said everything I would have liked him to, but I also except that he is not and never will be a europhile who will espouse unquestioning support of the EU. I am an avid remainer, but I think the level of constant critisicm of him as a 'reluctant remainer' and that he didn't do enough is excessive to be honest. There are perfectly valid reasons to have reservations of the EU and I don't think someone expressing these while still speaking for staying in the EU is necessarily a terrible thing.

The talk of cross party talks between labour and conservatives is interesting in that regard bigchoc. It suggests to me that labour could leave the Tories in power to take the fallout, while still forcing a softer stance on Brexit and austerity from behind the scenes. They could then claim credit for all the good stuff, while leaving the conservatives holding the shit.

BigChoc - none of that paints JC as someone who is a PM in waiting, does it?

His lacklustre support for Remain indubitably cost the campaign significant votes. All very well being in power for a generation, but wanting to be in power after helping bring about a complete shitshow really is wanting power for power's sake

And being PM means needing to be able to compromise, because it's rare that the feasible option is the one that perfectly fits one's ideals.

Both parties are prioritizing the interests of their party over the country

I would actually dread JC trying to negotiate Brexit, unless he out someone like Starmer in charge with complete authority.

Whereas picking up the pieces after a Brexit disaster does require someone who would make the better off pay for Brexit, not the poor and vulnerable
So, he would be better than a Tory PM post-Brexit

I also think McDonnell and Seamus Milne give him bad advice - they probably pushed him to go for Brexit right after the Ref result.

His lacklustre support for Remain indubitably cost the campaign significant votes.
Hmm.... I'm not so convinced that you can place the blame of Corbyn for losing the ref. Seems a bit of a stretch to me. There were a lot more significant issues with the pro-eu campaign and I don't think anyone came out of it smelling of roses. It's not as if there was an amazing campaign everyone else was involved except JC.

Bigchoc. I would agree with that assessment. I would hope it it comes to labour negotiating brexit Starmer is allowed to get on with it and Corbyn sticks to clearing up the austerity mess at home.

Yeah, and McDonald is a twit.

McDonnell...damn autocorrect.

Oh my, it's all been worth it after all, just for this amazing May and the Holy Grail video.

twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/878952701245218817

I place the blame for Brexit firmly at Cameron's door, for holding it in the first place, for failing to make it advisory not binding or requiring more than a simple majority, and for being so arrogant as to assume no real Remain campaign was needed.

But JC doesn't get off Scott free, especially as the result was so close

Nobody gets of scott free and everyone involved is deserving of criticism for the whole sorry mess, but I have noticed JC seems to get singled out for blame far more than others. It is disproportionate.

Agree bigly. Remain lost as soon as the referendum was announced. Having a government of the day, especially that one asking for a popular vote was a bit daft. I think a lot of people voted leave because they thought it was an anti DC/GO vote. JC did refuse to share platform with DC to campaign to remain. I'm still amazed that remain got such a high vote, when one considers how 'good' the leave campaign was.

I'd agree with that Bigley

Another really worrying potential knock on effect of brexit here. There is already a real crises round here due to lack of good care workers (another job that is shockingly underpaid). I can only see it getting worse as immigration from the EU reduces.

Brexit: Losing care staff from EU could force disabled people from their homes, report warns
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-disability-rights-care-staff-leave-home-eu-a7805566.html?amp

Placemat King - better late than never

Bigly that is another one of those articles with the red rag to a Brexiter tag on. In an environment of 7 years of austerity where benefit cuts have been concentrated on the disabled and where wages in the care sector are not sufficient to keep people out of poverty it rather begs the question of why advocates are so keen to protect the status quo.

Apparently Loathsome's call for patriotism in the media has had a response