Westminstenders: The Negotiations Continue - The DUP ones

[RedToothBrush]

Tomorrow is the Queen’s Speech. In honour of that the start of this thread is written in its honour:

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Immigration is bad. Except for that good immigration.
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Brexit means Brexit
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Pilot scheme.
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Money for –the DUP-- NI
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Brexit means Brexit
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The Internet is Bad. Newspapers are good.
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Brexit means Brexit.
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Britain wave your flag.
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(The Queen’s turns over the page to read the back of the A4 sheet, only to find it blank)

The situation we have at the moment is the Tories turning up to the Louvre and asking where they can hang this:

Laura Kuenssberg‏***@bbclaurak*

Tusk said offer is 'below expectation' - May acknowledges 'there are differences' btw UK and EU position
May says no recollection of Standard claim
May says she has had some positive responses to the proposals including from Poland
PM says British courts will enforce citizens rules, but tantalisingly says that would mean rules part of international law...hint on hybrid?

Sam Coates Times‏*@SamCoatesTimes*
But @bbclaurak the Poles were not that positive at all!

Jakub Krupa‏ @JakubKrupa
BOOM: Poland's Europe Minister Szymański says he appreciates May's proposal, but considers it incomplete and not meeting all EU requirements

Laura Kuenssberg‏ @bbclaurak
Ref to international treaty law v interesting - could mean (nerd alert) rules could be applied by international court in The Hague lawyers?
Wondering if May just gave a giant hint of the compromise over the ECJ problem
If deal is in withdrawal treaty, means it is international law, means theoretically enforced at The Hague, not the ECJ -(calls lawyers)

Tobias Lock‏*@tobiaslock*

Withdrawal treaty would be between EU and UK; and EU not subject to the Hague jurisdiction. So no.

May says no recollection of Standard claim

She really is a bit dim, isn't she ? I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary could confirm from the meeting minutes what the score was, even if he doesn't name names.

'No recollection' is code for 'I know this happened but am pretending otherwise.' It is not a denial.

Regarding "gorgeous" George ...

I wonder if - as well as personal enmity for May, he is nursing a little bit of long-suppressed disdain for the Bullingdon boys ... wasn't there a story that they called him "oik" at Oxford, due to his not having been to Eton.

Revenge really is a dish served cold, and if he can slowly twist the knife against May and BoJo as Standard editor (with some rubbing off on Cameron) so much the better.

Lurking - the simple answer to your hypothetical question is to grant children rights in line with their parents. It can obviously get complicated with older dependent children or children who split their time between different parents, but as a broad principle it should work and is in line with much existing immigration law.

She really is a bit dim, isn't she ?

That's the problem
So are the Ultras

She's such a bad liar isn't she. You'd think she'd make a bit more effort...

"No recollection" is code for "I want to deny it and think I'll get away with it, but am fudging things in case someone is able to proper evidence somewhere down the line"

I hold Cameron responsible for the failure to get agreement to the assurance last year: it was his ridiculous commitment to a net migration figure that meant any Home Secretary could not agree to the proposal

As an affected immigrant (Briton) I'm glad the EU has my back. May's "offer" is disgraceful. It leaves open the possibility that future changes in national immigration law could be used retrospectively against EU citizens in the UK or Britons in the EU.

It also doesn't take account of the reality of migration. Many migrants don't stay 5 years continuously in one place, and indeed this is what has caused some of the issues for EU migrants seeking permanent right to remain: for eg the French academic who lost his PRR inadvertently due to a period working in South Africa.

Why should the EU waste time with any court other than the ECJ ?

Once again, UK vs "27 others" is a rather one-sided affair.

So....shes lying?
Ffs

Misti

EU do not seem to be biting re the reciprocal arrangements.

In fact I thought this issue was one of the "easier" ones, you know get it in at the start of negotiations, shake hands and move on to the more difficult issues.

Not looking like that now.

Lurking - the simple answer to your hypothetical question is to grant children rights in line with their parents. It can obviously get complicated with older dependent children or children who split their time between different parents, but as a broad principle it should work and is in line with much existing immigration law.

In that case, the childrens children would have the same rights ? So EU rights would be perptual ?

What a clusterfuck

In fact I thought this issue was one of the "easier" ones, you know get it in at the start of negotiations, shake hands and move on to the more difficult issues.

I think this is at the crux of everything and is the most complicated bit.

People weave complicated lives, and there will have to be a clear path for every single eventuality (I refer you to my simple hypotheticals upthread).

And when a scenario arises that was not explicitly envisaged in the agreement, there has to be absolute clarity and faith that it can be resolved fairly.

Just for lolz (well, if you are a Remainer) any agreement will be backstopped by the ECHR - in particular Mays hated Article 8.

I physically shivered when I read Theresa May promising that "families would not be split apart", as - given her tenure at the Home Office - it seems to be what she does.

No, it's like when a worker who needs a visa comes to the UK with their family: the worker gets a visa allowing them to stay for a period of time with certain restrictions and entitlements around accruing years towards permanent residency, access to public services etc.

The children get visas granted in line with the worker, so they have the same time period stamped on their vignette, (mostly) the same entitlements etc. They are not considered as individuals, which is also helpful for casework handling purposes

But it's not uncommon or completely unheard of for families that move frquently for work to have different passport entitlements if they have had children overseas. I know a number of families who have children with different pitential claims to citizenship because child a was born in the UK, child b was born somewhere else and child g was born somewhere else again

Just remember folks, this needs to be nailed down - along with the Brexit bill - before we talk about anything else.

Oh, that Brexit bill ? It will have to include the pensions and healthcare of the UK citizens in the EU at the moment.

I wonder what the Brexit brigade will make of UK citizens abroad getting a better deal than those at home ?

I agree the immigration policy issues will be tricky to resolve but I am confident some simple principles can be established. The crux, as you rightly say Lurking, is whether the EU negotiators can have faith that they will be applied appropriately when the inevitable unusual case crops up

child g should obviously have been child c in my post above...

How about rescind the a50 and put brexit down to a Britain having a 'moment of madness'. I'm awed by the compassion with which the EU27 are treating the new sick man of europe.

I agree woman. Question is whether EU would allow us to retain the benefits we currently enjoy.

There was a thread about Corbyn recently where it was generally taken as a given (including by me) that the Tories were going to be in power for at least the next 10 years. It's pretty unprecedented to reduce a poll lead of 20% to 2% in 6 weeks and waste millions of pounds of taxpayers' money in the process when you could happily have stayed in power for another 3 years.
I've asked this before but does anyone know what would happen if TM resigned and nobody put themselves forward to be PM? I just don't see why any sane person would want the job right now. It's the ultimate poisoned chalice.

I've asked this before but does anyone know what would happen if TM resigned and nobody put themselves forward to be PM?

The Queen would invite someone most likely to command the confidence of the house.

George Osborne is in no small part responsible for the mess and the reasons behind Brexit. He also is a 'useful idiot tool' in throwing a spanner in the works too.