Westminstenders: The Negotiations Continue - The DUP ones

[RedToothBrush]

Tomorrow is the Queen’s Speech. In honour of that the start of this thread is written in its honour:

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Immigration is bad. Except for that good immigration.
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Brexit means Brexit
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Pilot scheme.
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Money for –the DUP-- NI
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Brexit means Brexit
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The Internet is Bad. Newspapers are good.
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Brexit means Brexit.
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Britain wave your flag.
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(The Queen’s turns over the page to read the back of the A4 sheet, only to find it blank)

In terms of keeping the UK in the single market' surely every country has access to the single market? Provided they follow harmonised produce rules (and making something to fulfil one set of rules rather 27 countries surely makes sense for businesses).

The leaver argument seems to be the the contribution the UK makes to the EU is not good value for money in terms of comparing the tariff free access that comes with membership.

Surely countries succeed fundamentally if they produce goods and services that people want - not because of the small print in their trade deals.

A big warning on this link. I am not a big crier, but have just sat reading this in tears. It is a piece written by a firefighter and originally posted on face book. It makes me think of something a friend of mine who is an accountant once said to me. He said he often felt ashamed that he got paid so much more to look after money than nurses, police, firefighters get paid to look after people. What does this say about our priorities?

A firefighter who attended Grenfell tower has written this:
michaelrosenblog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/a-firefighter-who-attended-grenfell.html?spref=tw

Not sure if this has already been posted given up trying to catch up

http://theconversation.com/six-graphs-showing-the-state-of-the-uk-economy-a-year-after-brexit-referendum-79598?utmsource=facebook&utmmedium=facebookbutton

But we're just not being patriotic enough

citroen Every country theoretically has "access" to export to every other country or trade bloc.
However, there are are normally quotas, fees, certification procedures, tariffs and many non-tariff barriers that prevent anything like as easy or cheap access that members of a trade bloc have.

e.g. looks like components criss-crossing EU borders umpteen times before reaching an assembly line would not be practical without belonging to the single market and the customs union, or an EEA / EFTAA type Brexit

Turkey belongs to the Custom Union and has theoetical "access", but lorries at its borders wait typically 15 hours, sometimes 36 hours, in long queues to enter the EU.
That would hammer UK manufacturing exports, or component imports.

Canada has CETA, which Brexiters think could be a template deal. However, they don't export services to the EU and much of their exports are raw materials.
Their meat industry has reported that despite CETA supposedly allowing it, they don't have access in practice because of EU regulations conflicting with those they must fulfill for the US market, with both the US and EU requiring their rules be universal, to avoid accidental "contamination" anywhere in the chain.

To continue the highly lucrative City financial services, the UK would need Financial Passporting from the EU to do such business involving EU countries.
The EU probably can't immediately replicate all London services, but they will phase out UK passporting as they develop their own capabilities.

bigly re firefighters: I keep getting exasperated with pensioners who proudly say they worked ft until 60 or 65 and had no problem.

They mostly had white-collar jobs in a comfortable office, low stress, often the same employer most of their working life.
Working conditions - workload, unpaid overtime, sick days, permitted career absences etc - have worsened even for office jobs

Even if one avoids any disability or chronic condition that limits physical capability - and a significant number will have some problems by age 60 -

continuing to do an ft physically demanding job - care worker, cleaning, plumbing, building trade etc - would be a nightmare even for those of us physically fit

Let alone with dangerous and very uncomfortable conditions like firefighting
and where lives of their colleagues and the public depend on getting it right every time.

Too many privileged people think everyone else's life has been as easy as theirs
Hence, no empathy for anyone struggling

Most of us have no idea of what our public service heroes, especially firefighters , have to go through, so that our society still functions.

Thank you BigChoc . It's helpful reading your lucid explanation about what access TO the single market means and the benefits of membership. I don't get the leave arguments on any level really. Huge price to pay whatever happens.

I think there should be a 'will anyone die?' test on pay for jobs. I currently work in a nice office job, it can be busy, but ultimately if I screw up nobody will actually die. At worst someone will be mildly inconvenienced for a short period of time. I get paid significantly more than social workers who work for the same organisation. If they make a mistake it will ruin lives, people can die. In my view this means they should automatically be paid a premium simply for having to deal with and manage that responsibility as well as to reflect the actual value of that role.

I am retraining as a mental health nurse and will take a large pay cut. I will probably never earn what I am on now again. Dispite the fact I will have a harder job with far more serious consequences for errors and a much more direct and powerful impact on people's lives. Everytime I think about the completely fucked up monetary value we place on different jobs in this world it makes my brain explode.

Jacob Rees-Mogg as chair of Treasury Select Committee? Yuk. Nicky Morgan would be supported by Labour....
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/23/labour-mps-will-back-nicky-morgan-for-treasury-select-committee-chair

Genuine question: I have always been under the impression that the Tory party were essentially in the pockets of big business. Assuming that my cynicism is well-founded, why aren't there Machiavellian manoeuvrings afoot to thwart Brexit? I assume Brexit is basically bad for business and that they would wish to remain in the EU. But maybe they are hoping Brexit will lead to a regulation-free tax haven with cheap labour? Or are they simply seeing a future elsewhere and making plans to desert the sinking ship?

I think that ^ is the whole issue that is tearing the Tory party apart tbh
Swivel eyed loons in the back benches don't realise ALL Tory donors are big businesses.
None of which sees brexit as a good thing.

I think it's more divided than that Bat. That would apply to Philip Hammond probably, but not the ultras (many of whom like Rees Mogg have inherited wealth or money made by being a landlord, or even through just being an mp for a long time.

There are fewer people going into politics with any work experience at all other than spad, and this results in less attention paid to 'ordinary' workers, including businesses.

Bat Under MrsT, I remember seeing traditional business supporters of the Tory party start to be replaced by "spivs".
These now seem to have taken over

Traditional business supporters and industrialist became wealthy by building up or running businesses that produce something useful - which would be seriously affected by Brexit -
but
spivs gained quicker, easier wealth via "vulture" capitalism , casino capitalism, or what I call "hyena" calitalism,
all of which profit from looting and destroying traditional businesses, from an army of the unemployed and precariat, from a "Bonfire of Regulations" which is what their Tory rightwing pals are trying to achieve with Brexit.

Basically the interests of many big Tory donors no longer have anything in common with those of the remaining 99.99% of the population.
We need to see if the remaining donors still have sufficient clout.

And some of those Tories who have inherited fortunes have lost any sense of social responsibility, which to be fair many last Tory Grandees did have.

Like the US right, they consider their wealth as virtuous in itself, regardless of whether they did anything to earn it, except come out of the right fanjo.

past Tory Grandees

Bigly - I use the "will anyone die?" test for managing work mistakes. Most of the pen pushing jobs I have done the answer is no, though there have been some jobs with that potential and I can tell you that the difference was palpable

Has anyone else seen the express article about the BBC today?

My favourite quote from a Tory MP "They will seize any opportunity to get Theresa May out. Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury is a typical example of their behaviour… the BBC is out of control.”

Apparently the Glastonbury festival has been engineered by the BBC to get Jeremy Corbyn into Number 10. I'm not sure that they really understand what the Glastonbury festival is.

Capitalism assesses worth / pay by what brings profit and by the relative supply & demand of the personnel.
Work that is valuable or important to ordinary people - i.e. those without wealth - is not well paid, unless it is mass entertainment e.g. footballers, screen stars.

And that bigchoc is one of the fundamental issues with capitalism. It considers people expendable in the pursuit of wealth. It has more similarities to the feudal system where serfs have little value and exist only to increase the wealth and standing of the aristocratic minority than many will care to admit. It is something I find abhorrent, that this disregard for people is demonstrated in plain site day after day and people just except it without question.

Gosh, I seem to have come over all political today.

Site = sight

It's the manipulators outside the system (Aaron Banks, etc), who don't really fit into any party mould, hat are particularly dangerous for democracy.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2962638-Westministenders-No-Brexit-is-Better-than-a-Bad-Brexit?watched=1#prettyPhoto
New Thread

math

Krugman looks like he's sitting slack jawed and speechless as well. And then exasperated and angry.