Anybody else wish the EU referendum had never happened? Or Remain had won?

[fakenamefornow]

I feel like the country is in a fucking mess already and we haven't even started to leave yet. So much uncertainty.

I voted Remain though, I know this must be colouring my view. Any Leave voters wishing it had never happened or even that Remain had won? Are you still happy with how it's going? I'm fed up with it all but am really trying to see the other side. Not looking forward to yet another election which I fear may be just around the corner.

The Leavers had no problem in wanting the results of the first Referendum overturned, so I fail to see why this one should be different.

1. "The Leavers" as a homogenous mass do not exist.

2. I'm not sure what you are referring to. Do you mean the referendum on staying in the EEC decades ago? If you do, I am not following your logic.

As for your statement that the vast majority voting for parties stating that they wanted to leave the single market two points can be made:
1) many people were voting tactically to get the Tories out because they were afraid that the health service and education would be destroyed under them, and brexit was not their primary concern, and 2) May's Government had no problem whatever in ignoring Cameron's manifesto commitment to the single market. May was in Cameron's Government so it might be assumed that she signed up to the Manifesto

Why was Brexit not their main concern? Because both parties promised the same. If party a and party b both agree on policy c, then policy c will not be what motivates you to vote for party a.

Our democracy is based on each vote being of the same value and the result of the aggregate of votes being honoured. Our democratic system does not allow for interpretation of what people "really" meant by their vote. The vast majority voted for a party promising Brexit. I personally know people who voted Labour on the assumption, well not an assumption, it was in their manifesto, that Brexit was going to happen whether Tories or Labour won. They've been tricked, haven't they?

Basically, it's a bit rich for you to complain about a lack of democracy, now that it's not gone the way you wanted

No, It's not. I believe in democracy and would have always accepted the result whatever it was. It really saddens me that people are happy to sacrifice democracy to get what they want. Sadly, I think we will all pay the price, in an even more divided society with people unable to feel they have real democratic political agency, and our eventual exit from the EU, or it's collapse, whichever comes first, will be far more difficult and painful than if we did it now.

Or perhaps as pp wishes above, we will just be submerged into the US of Europe and carry on serving the gods of economic productivity and consumerism, our true purpose after all.

Completely devastated that we are leaving and this election has just made it worse. I feel so sad and angry and yes wish with all my all heart that it had never happened. Will read the whole thread tomorrow as very interested as to whether any leavers wish now that it hadn't taken place .

EU opens legal case against Warsaw, Budapest and Prague over migration

uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN19313G

Why was Brexit not their main concern? Because both parties promised the same.

Er nope

June the 23rd last year i voted in the referendum. Unbeknownst to me (and I suspect most voters) apparently we were in teams and my team lost

Months and months followed of being told by the government, a lot of the media, and some posters on mumsnet that it was a done deal, we were leaving the EU, no going back, unless you were with them you were against them etc

So, stupidly i now realise, I thought i was voting on the economy, education, crime, welfare (desperately trying to think of what the vote for policies website had)

But no it seems that there was a tacit understanding that we were voting for brexit again

I am a bit annoyed that no one told me

Yes, I was referring to the 1975 Referendum at which I was both able to vote and working as a poll clerk.

1) "The Leavers" as a homogenous mass do not exist.
Nor do the people who voted for either Labour or Conservative. You may have a stronger argument with the Greens and UKIP.

Our democracy is based on each vote being of the same value and the result of the aggregate of votes being honoured. Our democratic system does not allow for interpretation of what people "really" meant by their vote. The vast majority voted for a party promising Brexit. I personally know people who voted Labour on the assumption, well not an assumption, it was in their manifesto, that Brexit was going to happen whether Tories or Labour won. They've been tricked, haven't they?

No, our democracy is base on a First past the post system, so that a few marginal constituencies swing the results. Hence a legitimate claim now by Caroline Lucas that she represents many more people than either conservative or labour MPs. Farage had the same argument last time - for 12% of the vote they gained one seat.

You don't know what people voted for. You can get an idea of what issues matter in your own constituency if you are politically active and study the canvassing returns. Theresa May appears to have made the assumption that the Leave voters in the Referendum regarded immigration as the key issue. Given that she didn't get a mandate, never mind the 80-100 extra seats that she expected, it can be argued that the electorate rejected this. They could have wanted to see the £350 million a week for the NHS. The local LibDem candidate campaigned against hospital closures locally and unseated the Tory, so it can be accepted that this was a key issue in my constituency.

Certainly a number of voters have been tricked.

But you've just agreed with me Rufus. You said you thought Brexit was "a done deal". So how can your vote be interpreted as a vote against Brexit?

This is what people are doing. They aren't saying

• some people thought Brexit was a done deal so voted on other issues (your position)

• some people want Brexit but believed Labour's manifesto so voted for them as they agree with their other policies (people I knows position)

They are saying that a vote for Labour was a vote against Brexit.

How anyone can say that, I don't know, but people are saying it, and other people are not calling them absurd.

The Lib-Dems stood on an anti-Brexit ticket, and lost seats.

Trying to "interpret" what voters meant by their votes in order to not do what they voted for is, in my opinion, a very, very dangerous road to go down.

cross

Point me at them and i will tell them they are absurd

I have mainly seen people saying that by voting labour people were rejecting Mays brexit..

I dont think i have seen anyone say that a vote for labour was a vote against any sort of brexit

But there have been loads of posts so just give me rough timings and i will absurd the shit out of them

The Lib-Dems stood on an anti-Brexit ticket, and lost seats

Right, right.

Trying to "interpret" what voters meant by their votes in order to not do what they voted for is, in my opinion, a very, very dangerous road to go down.

Whilst interpreting that all Leavers voted to, for example, flounce out of EURATOM just because it's got the word "European" in it is absolutely accurate.

The Lib-Dems stood on an anti-Brexit ticket, and lost seats.

Overall they gained seats.

Trying to "interpret" what voters meant by their votes in order to not do what they voted for is, in my opinion, a very, very dangerous road to go down.

That is exactly what happened after the Referendum. No one went back to the electorate to ask which options they might have preferred. Immediately after the Referendum Daniel Hannan was on Newsnight saying that we would keep Freedom of Movement. Earlier this year we were being told that all parties were against Freedom of Movement. Farage extolled Norway's position before the Referendum. All you can say is that May asked for a mandate on a hard Brexit and she hasn't got it.

She also wanted other things like a vote on fox-hunting. It's not something I get worked up about myself, but I know it cost the party some votes from people who do feel strongly.

Beg your pardon, yes Lib Dems did gain seats but still have only twelve in total.

Rufus It's not on here so much, though a bit, but lots on Twitter and various politicians. The suggestion being made is that the election result suggests we should Brexit but stay in the single market, which goes against the Labour manifesto and is essentially not Brexiting.

Are you prepared to sacrifice living in a democracy to stay in the EU?

How is it democratic that the PM refuses to answer questions or be held accountable.

Democracy is not a single vote.

It is an ongoing conversation that in unpinned by the constitutional pillars of democracy - the government, the media and the courts. The idea is they are supposed to keep the power of each other in check.

So when the pm dodges journalists as she had been for months having staged events and giving non-answers that's not a democracy.

So in answer to your questions if it's a question of choice between your illusion and ignorance of what democracy is and the real sort of democracy where you can ask questions about accountability and maybe talk about the official government assessments of x, y or z - because government is there to serve the public - without getting a stony silence, I would choose actual real democracy not this phoney made up description of democracy which is little more than an attempt to silence people to push through Brexit at all costs rather than serve the interests of the people.

But there you go.

Remind me again how we we will have more soveignity, be financially better off or more in control of the laws we are subject to... Ah yes.

So when the pm dodges journalists as she had been for months having staged events and giving non-answers that's not a democracy.

If you were in a marginal seat or one which was being targeted by Opposition groups, as I am, you will have been in receipt of her astonishing missive before the election. Sent from Treeza, not the Conservative party, it was all about I, I, I, me, me, me, and how useless Corbyn was. There was hardly a mention of the Conservative party and only a passing reference to the candidate. It was a letter worthy of a Dictator. In 47 years of voting, I have never seen the like of it. I also wonder who paid for it, and whether it broke the election spending rules - The Tories were rumbled with their campaign bus shenanigans last time, so they can't get away with that now.

Yet we are being preached to about democracy!

Red oh wise one and source of all knowledge and wisdom, people who disagree with you aren't ignorant, they disagree.

Our democracy isn't perfect. There are problems with it. Our press is far from perfect. Our politicians, including TM, are far from perfect. Nevertheless our democracy is the system we have whereby every citizen in the country eligible to vote has one vote, and the vote of a unemployed bricklayer is worth the same as that of a lawyer or business man (yes, I know there are safe seats, but each vote when the results are counted has the same value).

But if you are prepared to accept the overturning of two democratic votes where the majority voted to leave the EU, then at least have the moral courage of your convictions and admit that you do not believe in democracy.

Isn't it strange how your version of "democracy" looks like it might deliver what the middle classes and the establishment want, whilst scuppering what the working classes and those with less power want? It's almost like all those people after the referendum saying the uneducated masses shouldn't have been able to vote will get their way. Only done by destroying democracy whilst leaving the facade of it in place. Even more scary.

We are heading into very dangerous waters, in my view.

We are heading into very dangerous waters, in my view.

I would have to agree with you there. However, I don't see why one Referendum vote has to be regarded as being set in tablets of stone, never to be changed. Society moves on, and needs to be able to adapt. Which is the argument which was deployed for calling the 2016 Referendum after the issue had been settled for a generation.

Who is talking about overcoming two democratic votes? If you are referring to the GE - May, having squandered a working majority, is trying to form a Government. No one is saying that she shouldn't be trying to form a Government. She could just get on with it and form a minority Government - but as usual she is messing around, talking in soundbites and blaming everyone else. She would have to row back from the more contentious issues in order to get her legislation through, but that would be no bad thing.

Who is talking about overcoming two democratic votes?

All the Tory and Labour MPs (which is the vast majority of MPs) were elected on manifestos of Brexit, ending freedom of movement and leaving the single market. Many people, including some politicians, are trying to say that the election result was a vote to not Brexit, not leave the single market and not end freedom of movement (in a War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery kind of way).

There are two possibilities - or more likely a mix of the two.

1. People felt that the EU decision was taken at the referendum and so voted on other issues or on the detail of Brexit, but with leaving the single market and ending FOM decided.

2. People didn't feel that the EU question was decided and in the majority voted for parties promising to Brexit, leave the SM and end FOM.

The attempt to say that people who voted Labour can be interpreted as saying they don't want Brexit, don't want to leave the SM and don't want to end FOM is logically nonsense and politically bankrupt.

This is the attempt to overturn democratic votes I am talking about. Hopefully it won't happen, but the fact that some people are trying to undermine democracy in this way is, to me, terrifying.

This was a GE with a raft of policies.

A lot of people are emailing their Labour MPs to say that they didn't vote for Brexit. I know Labour voters who prioritised the NHS and education. Do you think they should shut up? Is that democracy?

But if you are prepared to accept the overturning of two democratic votes where the majority voted to leave the EU, then at least have the moral courage of your convictions and admit that you do not believe in democracy.

There is literally no GE outcome anywhere on the Tory-Labour spectrum that Leavers would acknowledge as not supporting Brexit. If the Tories had won their expected landslide, that would mean The People Support Brexit. If Labour had won, The People Support Brexit. So we're in the middle, and The People Support Brexit.

Therefore, Brexit should happen as hard and as fast as possible. QED.

If you disagree with this, WHY DO YOU HATE DEMOCRACY YOU TRAITOR!

You ask your Tory pals why they haven't got on with Brexit then. They have had a year now.

A lot of people are emailing their Labour MPs to say that they didn't vote for Brexit. I know Labour voters who prioritised the NHS and education. Do you think they should shut up? Is that democracy?

I'm not sure why you are trying to put words into my mouth when I am trying to have a reasonable discussion. No, those people shouldn't shut up and yes, them letting their MPs know their views is democracy.

Trying to say that every vote for Labour was a vote against Brexit, against leaving the SM and against ending FOM, on the other hand, is lying, and is not democracy.

Although, come to think of it...

I thought I'd read before the election, a great deal of exhortation from the Tory campaign, the press and Tory-supporting posters, that we the People absolutely had to deliver Theresa her unconditionally-deserved ginormous landslide to show those dreadful foreign bullies how overwhelmingly strong her mandate was to deliver her vision of ultra-Hard Brexit. And that any vote for Labour would show a lack of unity and weaken her mandate for Brexit.

But now, we're told that all those seats lost (let me think, is it more than the 6 seat loss she said would destroy her Brexit mandate?) and all those votes for Labour are not a sign that the electorate do not give a full-hearted mandate for Brexit but in fact the opposite.

Deary me, it's so confusing. There I was, desperate to give my vote to Theresa to strengthen her mandate for Brexit, and now you tell me I could have voted for that lovely Jeremy after all and still have strengthened Theresa's mandate for Brexit!

My annoyance is round those who say that 80% now voted for Brexit. No, they voted for a range of issues of which a desire to protect health and education was a strong one. I am angry with those apologists who try to pretend it was another referendum. It's very much in the same vein of because the Referendum delivered a slight majority for Leave, everyone wanted to curb immigration. Which happens to be Theresa May's obsession.

Again Elements I'm not sure why you don't argue with what I am saying rather than things I haven't said.

If the Labour party had stood on not Brexitting, not leaving SM and not ending FOM, then a win for them would have been a vote against Brexit.

They didn't.

If the Lib Dems who stood on an anti Brexit ticket had won, that would have been a vote against Brexit.

They didn't.

The Tories stood on Brexit, leaving SM and ending FOM.

They got most seats.

Labour stood on Brexit, leaving SM and ending FOM.

They got the second highest number of seats.

The way our parliamentary democracy works is that, if you want people to elect you for a policy, you put it in your manifesto. There is no scope for post hoc "interpretations" of votes as meaning the opposite to what is in the manifesto. That is not democracy. If you go down that road, you are putting all the power in the hands of those doing the "interpreting". That is not democracy, is it?

I'm agreeing with you Cross - you're saying that any vote for either Labour or Conservative is a vote for Brexit are you not?

There is no scope for post hoc "interpretations" of votes as meaning the opposite to what is in the manifesto. That is not democracy. If you go down that road, you are putting all the power in the hands of those doing the "interpreting". That is not democracy, is it?

That is exactly what happened with the Referendum. All that did was show that the public had a preference to Leave the EU. No one asked the supplementary question as to what sort of Brexit was required.
No one went to the country to ask which of these is most important to you:
curbing EU immigration
protecting the NHS
Sovereignty (although later admitted that this was never lost, but 'felt like it'.)

Theresa May assumed that it was about immigration and freedom of movement, and acted on that basis.

How can you not say that is anything but an interpretation?

My annoyance is round those who say that 80% now voted for Brexit

Me too. Apparently we've had two democratic votes where the majority voted to leave the EU -
er no we haven't - I don't know why anyone (not many people fortunately) would try and claim that.