Westministenders: Election Mayhem

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tock, tick tock goes the Brexit Clock.

Don’t panic, just don’t turn up to debates because you have talks starting on the 19th June and have to perfect the 100 page document relating to at least 750 international agreements that need renegotiating before then. Anyone who turns up for their job interview for that, is just wasting time.

If only someone hadn’t called a distracting election.

This election was dubbed to be about Brexit. Yet it is remarkable that we have barely had debate over it. No one wants to admit it really. We nearly got a consensus between Barry Gardiner, Nick Clegg and David Davis over it being a political not economic decision on Question Time on Thursday 1st June, but we are not quite there yet with the admission that the economy is toast. This means the addition money the Conservatives have promised for the NHS won’t be available but we can’t have this discussion. Its properly the fault of purdah. Instead the subject rapidly got skipped over. Instead Davis said that the target May had just set for immigration to be at tens of thousands by 2022 was unrealistic.

In post-election rumour has it that Davis is about to get a promotion to the FCO, whilst Johnson gets the boot. On the other hand Gove is also rumoured for NI and May loyal Gummer gets Brexit.

Meanwhile the 1922 Committee of Tory Backbenchers are said to be plotting the downfall of at least one of May’s guard dogs, Nick Timothy following the decision about the Dementia Tax and subsequent U-Turn. Farage also mentioned Timothy in his statement over the breaking news that the CPS are pressing charges on the Conservative Candidate for South Thanet (the former MP there), his agent and a Tory Party official over election expenses. It seems almost inconceivable that Timothy can survive a traditional Tory Knifing.

This is all as May’s leadership approval ratings are in freefall as the honeymoon is firmly ends, after the public finally got to see her create an army of strawmen as answers, in a barely concealed contempt for the public’s concerns. May’s reaction to a negative reaction? Go back into hiding from media accountability and get the Mail to do her dirty work.

Elsewhere the EU have lined up to criticise Trump over his hard ball attempt to renegotiate the Paris Climate Deal. May was noticeable by her absence as she’s trying the same trick over Brexit and is desperate to keep Trump onside. What is Trump offering us in return? Apart from a Brexit Opportunity to get stiffed.

As for the polls? Despite them, it’s difficult to see the Tories not making a net seat gain. For Labour to do well it relies on widespread tactical voting, young who haven’t previously voted turning out in levels not seen since the 1970s and this being spread across the country and not concentrated in University areas. This will be tough to achieve to simply stop a Tory Landslide, never mind a hung parliament. Labour winning a majority is the stuff of pure fantasy (needs Lab to be 12points ahead of Cons). That said, if the result isn’t much different to the 2015 result, it will beg major questions over May’s leadership and her ability to read the public mood. It will say something about her refusal to engage with ‘the saboteurs’.

Expect an increased Tory Majority but not of the epic scale of 470 they originally were aiming for.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the perpetrators were British born and bred. Furthermore, Trump is being utterly stupid - what does he expect, a total curfew?

TBF there are lots of people here saying we need to 'do something'.

I'm yet to hear someone come up with a sensible comment on what the 'do something' is.

I was kind of in agreement with the 'stop underfunding the police, nhs, intelligence services' idea.

I don't really know much about the 'cut off funding from Saudi Arabia to extremism in the U.K.'

Is that even happening?

Start recognising the selfless way that nursing and medical staff immediately rally round to help, and give them a decent pay rise, instead of pretending that we can't afford it.

These incidents are a threat to me and my family, only a matter of days ago we were as a family out in the area and individually even more recently, and on a daily basis we are nearby, but the last thing I want is some orange arsehole, or anyone else, using that as an excuse to curtail people's rights. It was never an issue when it was White christians doing it. Didn't Trump even support them?

Trump exploiting the events in London to try and curry favour for his Muslim Ban is just vomit inducing.

Hope you have managed to make contact with your family members mother.

I'm yet to hear someone come up with a sensible comment on what the 'do something' is.

There are plenty of things that can be done, Red.
I remember you listed several good suggestions on the Manchester threads - but as you said then, they're unglamorous & medium to long term.

Unfortunately, the emotional reaction is the 'do something now' and as you said there is no sensible 'right now' stuff.

It's the feeling of helplessness in the immediate aftermath that leads people to the do something now comments - god knows I feel like that at the moment even though rationally I know there's not much can be 'done' immediately.

Well, thinking though the implications of "A fish can only swim through water" would be a start.

We need to think about what creates water abroad, what creates water at home and what creates water both at home and abroad e.g.

1. What creates water abroad- Stop interfering with/invading/bombing other countries and calling dead children abroad "collateral damage"
2. What creates water at home- Start funding public services properly again from social services to police intelligence, to ensure we can intervene in radicalisation at beginning and at the end. This would also include building a society with a focus on things like full employment, decent housing, equality of opportunity, to minimise disillision and disenfranchisement, and build a sense of belonging and community.
3. What creates water both at home and abroad- a divisive political discourse of blame and retribution, within a political context where it is ok to effectively write off the life chances of 10-30% of the population via a combination of ordering and pushing them out of the political process/discourse. We've pursued political strategies designed to disenfranchise those on the margins (both left and right) for t least the last 20-30 years, we've discouraged and eroded any dissenting voices who don't sound like the cosy "us".

I think this applies to the "War on Drugs" as much as the "War on Terror". There are a lot of parallels there- US intervention abroad coupled with little no or opportunity for and active discrimination against young people (especially young men) with a different skin colour at home.

People need both purpose in life and a means to make a living. Any society that neglects to find ways to give large swathes of its citizens access to both purpose and pay is asking for trouble, before it goes and starts invading other places, never mind after.

*othering not ordering

Yes I agree. The problem is that people want something 'instant' and won't be satisfied with any of these solutions. That was more my point.

Its the kneejerk reaction stuff that results in the loss of freedom that bothers me, and does not solve the problems.

TBF, I do think increasing police numbers and upping the spend on specific intelligence would both satisfy a lot of the knee jerkers and contribute something. It would be pissing in the wind as the only measure though.

'cut off funding from Saudi Arabia to extremism in the U.K.'

The Wahhabi sect has the Saudi body politic by the short and curlies. This sect funds mosques, madrassas and educational and community centres in the Muslim community all over the world. There is a bottomless purse for the spread of the Wahhabi brand of Islam worldwide. The Wahhabis heavily influence the jihadists.

www.nytimes.com/2016/08/26/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-islam.html
“There’s only so much dehumanizing of the other that you can be exposed to — and exposed to as the word of God — without becoming susceptible to recruitment,” said David Andrew Weinberg, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies in Washington who tracks Saudi influence....

^Saudi proselytizing can result in a “recalibrating of the religious center of gravity” for young people...which makes it “easier for them to swallow or make sense of the ISIS religious narrative when it does arrive. It doesn’t seem quite as foreign as it might have, had that Saudi religious influence not been there.”

The article argues that there are other influential extremists and other causes of extremism, but imo these individuals could not have the global reach that Saudi extremism has because they are not funded to the tune of billions of $$$.

The problem gets danced around because of the oil trade and because there is at the moment no alternative to the ibn Saud dynasty.

Twelve years after Sept. 11, after years of quiet American complaints about Saudi teachings, a State Department contractor, the International Center for Religion and Diplomacy, completed a study of official Saudi textbooks. It reported some progress in cutting back on bigoted and violent content but found that plenty of objectionable material remained. Officials never released the 2013 study, for fear of angering the Saudis. The New York Times obtained it under the Freedom of Information Act.

Seventh graders were being taught that “fighting the infidels to elevate the words of Allah” was among the deeds Allah loved the most, the report found, among dozens of passages it found troubling. Tenth graders learned that Muslims who abandoned Islam should be jailed for three days and, if they did not change their minds, “killed for walking away from their true religion.” Fourth graders read that non-Muslims had been “shown the truth but abandoned it, like the Jews,” or had replaced truth with “ignorance and delusion, like the Christians.”

Some of the books, prepared and distributed by the government, propagated views that were hostile to science, modernity and women’s rights, not to say downright quirky — advocating, for instance, execution for sorcerers and warning against the dangers of the Rotary Club and the Lions Club. (The groups’ intent, said a 10th-grade textbook, “is to achieve the goals of the Zionist movement.”)

The textbooks, or other Saudi teaching materials with similar content, had been distributed in scores of countries, the study found. Textbook reform has continued since the 2013 study, and Saudi officials say they are trying to replace older books distributed overseas.

[10th graders are 15/16].

It's bizarre how governments can act outraged at Islamic terrorism and yet refuse to publicly state any link between Saudi Wahhabism and Isis. Because it would be economically inconvenient to do so. Same with Trump. 'Ban the Muslims!........But not the Muslims from the country that makes me mega dollars (and funds and inspires actual terrorists)'.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/demands-grow-social-media-calls-election-postponed/
Calls for General Election to be postponed after second terror attack in two weeks

I don't think that it would help matters at this point.

Id star rhythm s post if i could.
I'm hoping that jc becoming more mainstream means we can now discuss this kind of thing properly rather than the "hang em" knee her political reaction

An immediate measure would be to put bollards in areas of high footfall in London. Instant protection from these sorts of attacks (which I imagine are very hard to prevent/anticipate).

I am yet again thankful that we have such strict gun laws in this country!

The emergency services showed again how fantastic they are. The only knee jerky thing that should be done is to recognise they are massively understaffed and under funded, and to acknowledge how much more could have been achieved if they were staffed and funded appropriately.

Just woke up to the news. It feels even worse for being so close to the Manchester attack, and the last London one doesn't seem all that long ago. It does start to feel constant.

I don't know what can be done, but surely we have to look to funding of the police and intelligence services better to help prevent attacks. The story the other day about May cutting the army back also looks pretty bad right now. The NHS also has to have the proper services and staff in place to be able to cope when incidences do happen.

Bollards and greater pedestrianisation in some of these really busy areas would be something I would support for a lot of reasons bolshy.

An immediate measure would be to put bollards in areas of high footfall in London.

Then it will just move to other cities.

I think May might postpone the election now. It would probably save her from humiliation.

Wasn't there a dailymash or something similar spoof article about May u-turning on holding an election. Suddenly that isn't seeing so crazy. Though surely she wouldn't go that far?

The problem for her is that the longer she puts it off the longer she has to look terrible and for Corbyn to look not so terrible. Time is not doing her any favours so far. On the other hand I suppose she could delay it and release a new manifesto in response to the attacks that gives more money to the police and NHS. That could work in her favour as long as people don't see it as cynical. I think putting of the election seems risky right now, but it will depend on how public opinion swings over the next day or two.

Bollards wouldn't have stopped the knife attack. Nor would the banning of carrying knives. Didn't it happen in a restaurant, where there will be any number of sharp knives in the kitchen?

RhythmandStealth: brilliant post. Spot on. But combined with Mathanxiety's post about the Saudi funding of Wahhabism, not anything that our politicians - especially the Conservatives - will ever accept, let alone act upon

Firstly, thank you all for these threads, the detail, the links, the opposing voices. I (and imagine how many other lurkers!) have learnt so much and am so knowledgeable and fills the gap that our questionable media has built.

I think the UK needs a strategic approach to how it reduces radicalisation and terrorism from grass roots up. The west needs to think about how we continue in so many areas, admittedly I think the likes of Germany and France are following the right path, Post ref UK? Sigh.

There were many major incidences in London yesterday (Barking Road Plaistow, Ripple Road Barking then London Bridge and Vauxhall) it is clear that our amazing services need support and the public need to see action and direction from our leaders.

Westminister, Manchester, London Bridge, Vauxhall. Lives interrupted on a 5 pence turn. Life changing phone calls. I have no words for the sadness.

The world feels so turbulent with no end in sight.

I'm sorry if I come across as sanctimonious but where do we put our outrage and emotion? I don't know what to do with it. I don't know where it goes.