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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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woman12345 · 02/06/2017 08:23

I've also read suggestions that the RoI should rejoin the UK, not just Irexit
Have the DUP/UU been imbibing or ingesting what they didn't ought to? Grin

As the economy crashes, the environment might benefit:
The tories have already closed all the coal mines; Ukip/tories have cancelled HS2 Smile and petrol and food prices will go only one way.
Renewable energy alongside grow your own will be the way to get along until a less brainless government comes along.

howabout · 02/06/2017 08:25

Charmageddon this was covered on the BBC 100+ programme last night. Like a lot of things the Paris Climate Change Agreement is viewed by many in the US, espec Republicans, as yet another example of Obama's abuse of Presidential Executive Powers. Apparently if it had been a proper Treaty Agreement it would have gone through the Legislature and would not be revocable by Trump. It would also likely have bipartisan approval, especially if in the normal way Obama had used a bi-partisan negotiating team.

Just as I blame Blair for most of DC's idiocy, the same could be said for Obama and Clinton and their high handed actions having caused Trump.

I also agreed with the European and Chinese commentators last night who pointed out "the train had already left the station" and the economics of green energy will start to drive change with or without Agreements - in that sense I don't really get the angst, unless people are really worried about unwinding the narrative that Obama actually did anything useful in 8 years.

I do credit Obama with running a much more sane reflationary economic policy than Europe though and that will be the legacy Trump could / should profit from if he sits on his tiny hands rather than pulling up the drawbridges and hunkering down per the rhetoric.

BiglyBadgers · 02/06/2017 08:28

I agree bigchoc. It is in Ireland's interests to stay in the EU and I find it pretty unimaginable that the RoI are going to suddenly get all nostalgic for British rule. Too many people in England seem to have forgotten the horrors we inflicted on them. I imagine they will also be looking to accommodate business that need or want to remain inside the EU when the UK leaves. The UK leaving will bring a lot of challenges for Ireland, but there are also big opportunities.

woman12345 · 02/06/2017 08:29

Russian links investigation persists, yesterday's announcement was distraction too?

BiglyBadgers · 02/06/2017 08:34

I also agreed with the European and Chinese commentators last night who pointed out "the train had already left the station" and the economics of green energy will start to drive change with or without Agreements - in that sense I don't really get the angst, unless people are really worried about unwinding the narrative that Obama actually did anything useful in 8 years.

I think a lot of the angst is about the diplomatic impact of being the only one (OK one of 3, but thats hardly comforting) backing out. It has served to increase the split between America and the rest of the world. I heard on R4 this morning that someone from the WH had said that pissing of Europe was a great side benefit to pulling out of the Paris accord. This is clearly part of a thought through plan of separation and isolationism, which is incredibly dangerous for everyone.

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 08:36

www.ft.com/content/41031323-d642-314a-b83d-895fb84e1b75
A fifth of Brits to vote ‘tactically’ at snap election

20 per cent said they would vote tactically – up from 9 per cent in the 2015 election

Mainly Ukip supporters apparently.

Happening most in East Midlands and North East. (25%)

60% will vote for first choice. 22% still undecided (noteworthy in itself as suggests they possibly don't have a first choice or are considering not voting for the first choice).

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ElenaGreco123 · 02/06/2017 08:42

So sad this morning. I can't pretend to have cared about the actual Paris accord, but it is disheartening to see how little regard DT has for the world and our future.

MrsHooliesCardigan Flowers

Peregrina Why do well off parents claim CB?
First of all, I have no memory of the first few weeks of DS's life, so we must have claimed it on HV recommendation.
We both earnt around £30k at the time, but of course after having a child I lost my job straight away. New job paid considerably lower. You never know what comes next. In my eyes CB is not my money, it is for DS and him alone.
Anyway, we are not entitled to it now.

whatwouldrondo · 02/06/2017 08:48

MrsHoolie Flowers

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 08:53

Removing CB makes it harder for partners who are low earning or stay at home parents to leave an abusive high earning partner.

I guess the assumption is that high earning partners don't abuse or someone should be just grateful for having a high earning partner and put up with things accordingly and not turn to the state if their relationship goes tits up.

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whatwouldrondo · 02/06/2017 08:54

Urban America and the sanctuary cities are not with Trump on climate change as well as immigration medium.com/@ClimateMayors/climate-mayors-commit-to-adopt-honor-and-uphold-paris-climate-agreement-goals-ba566e260097

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 09:00

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40125316
Brexit: Hard border 'could risk patient care' says BMA

At the moment, there are a number of cross-border health services like the cancer centre in Londonderry.

All-island care has been expanded in areas such as children's cardiac services.

There's also long-standing co-operation between the emergency services when responding to major emergencies and public health risks.

And

"It's not just cross-border movement that will be an issue for patients - 54% of the exports from Ireland are pharmaceuticals and huge amounts of medical equipment are made and come from Ireland," he said.

"What will happen if there are tariffs? What will happen to the cost of drugs with the change in the euro?"

Deal or not deal?

No deal is better than a bad deal?

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ElenaGreco123 · 02/06/2017 09:09

Red These are all minor details. You just need to be a bit more positive about our future and paediatric cardiology and oncology will sort themselves out. (I am obviously being sarcastic.)

missmoon · 02/06/2017 09:16

On the issue of child benefit, our welfare state was designed around universal benefits. This is because universal benefits create buy-in, so that everyone has a stake in the system (e.g. NHS, social care, disability benefits, etc.). Once you remove universal provision and people start paying for their own, support for the system falls. In addition, universal benefits help to avoid the stigma attached to means testing (see the success of free school meals). You can always raise taxes to pay for the extra benefits, e.g. recover CB for high earners by taxing them slightly more. The intention of the CB policy change was to undermine the welfare state more generally, please don't fall for it!

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 09:17

Yeah I didn't miss Theresa's comment yesterday about you had to believe in Brexit for Brexit to be a success. I thought she was a remainer...

politicalscrapbook.net/2017/06/theresa-may-is-now-refusing-to-do-any-interviews-with-bbc-radio/#more-64240
THERESA MAY IS NOW REFUSING TO DO ANY INTERVIEWS WITH BBC RADIO

The worry is that this becomes the norm after the election.

And also if this is true, the BBC as impartial should be able to tell people.

It's funny even the supposedly tory Kuenssberg has given May a hard time over stuff like this is recent days. Yet now this.

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missmoon · 02/06/2017 09:17

Just to add that our welfare state (at least in its initial conception) is studied around the world as a model to follow.

Peregrina · 02/06/2017 09:20

In my eyes CB is not my money, it is for DS and him alone. Anyway, we are not entitled to it now.

I fully agree - the money is for the child. To my mind you didn't count as extremely wealthy. The point I was trying to make, perhaps not too successfully, is that the very wealthy are usually happy with means tested benefits, even though it often costs more to administer, because it's a way of sorting out the 'deserving poor' from the 'undeserving poor', yet were more than happy to claim CB - I believe that the take up was virtually universal.

I agree too, as I did say, that wealth is not necessarily shared out within a family. Hence the big campaign I remember to make sure that CB was claimable by the woman and not given as a tax allowance when it was more likely to go to the man. I went on a demonstration about this years ago.

Rather than arsing about means testing this and that, why not pay proper rates of tax? The wealthy need to realise that they are part of society and as privileged people have a duty to it. I am sick and tired of reading about stupid sums of money paid to CEOs, who can't possibly have earned the sums they award themselves. Especially when in the next breath we read about zero hours contracts and the savage way the sick and disabled have been treated.

Peregrina · 02/06/2017 09:30

While I was busily typing the above diatribe missmoon stated very elegantly what I was trying to say.

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 09:39

Ian Jones @ ianajones
Conservatives slip down to 43% for the first time in the @PA poll of polls. #GE2017

Equates to
Con: 340
Lab: 227
LD: 10
SNP: 51
Plus rest

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TheElementsSong · 02/06/2017 09:45

I liked what Barry Gardiner (Lab) said on QT last night - that we ought to accept that we are Brexiting for political not economic reasons, and accept the price for it. Dimbleby asked something like "Are you saying we will be worse off?" and he replied "Yes".

I thought that would go down like a bucket of cold sick with most people, so was a brave acknowledgement.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/06/2017 09:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

whatwouldrondo · 02/06/2017 09:48

Last night at a business hustings in Twickenham the audience were asked if they were going to vote tactically, just shy of half confirmed they were.......

Peregrina · 02/06/2017 09:50

So that is a majority of 14 ? Less than they have at the moment ?

That would be a most gratifying result. Treeza would have shown herself up by wasting time and money. I bet the Tory party is already sharpening their knives.

Motheroffourdragons · 02/06/2017 09:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Bolshybookworm · 02/06/2017 10:02

Do you think the republicans in congress would have actually allowed Obama to sign up to the Paris Agreement, how? I don't, considering they tried to block everything he put to Congress just because of who he was. It's a bit rich of the republicans to blame Obama for Trumps actions when:
A) they left him no choice but to use his executive powers when in office
B) Trump is a republican president which they allowed to stand for their party!

They need to stop blaming the democrats and start taking some responsibility for the consequences of their actions. The GOP disgust me at the moment- weak, self-serving and immoral.

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 10:07

Today is apparently national fish and chip day.

I am now expecting a from UKIP to come out and declare that we should hold festivities and make it a bank holiday to celebrate our heritage.

It seems that Trump called European leaders (Macron's, May, Merkel) over Paris and wanted to renegotiate. Statement out was very firm no we will not renegotiate. Trump's art of the deal is all about this type of behaviour and it's similar to what he's trying to do with Obamacare.

This of course leaves the EU with no choice but to react like this.

The problem for May is she is trying to employ the same tactic as Trump over Brexit.

Which only serves for the EU to react in exactly this way even more.

May has kind of put herself in the position where she can't do a joint statement with the EU for that reason.

How the EU react to America backing out of the Paris Agreement therefore also gives you great big massive hints over how they handle Brexit.

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