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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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woman12345 · 01/06/2017 10:53

The centre still exists I still think it is the majority in this country. Economic and social segregation has led to extremes. Getting the centre back will be part of the repair job needed in years to come. DC's take down of Clegg was utterly Machiavellian, but I'm sure lib dems will recover from it in time. They went from Steele and Owen to Ashdown's great success in a very short time scale.

Peregrina · 01/06/2017 10:55

If there is a strategy shift to Brexit in the last week will this help or hinder with Remainy Cons?

I can't see how it can help. Supposedly Remain voting Tory MPs dutifully towed the Brexit line - only to start bleating when the election was called that they voted Remain. Too late - their voting behaviour showed that either they changed their mind, but couldn't or wouldn't articulate why, or that they were more interested in gaining posts in Government.

lalalonglegs · 01/06/2017 10:59

Our"Remain" Tory MP told someone I know at a meet and greet that she had Leave-voting family members who weren't talking to her. Hard to understand why when she has waved every bit of Brexit legislation through since the legislation, voted down amendments, refused to address the concerns of her 75% Remain voting constituents etc etc. Our constituency is now "Labour leaning" according to YouGov Smile.

BiglyBadgers · 01/06/2017 11:00

I know this is anecdote, but I do know more tactical voters this time than I have done for previous years. Or at least openly tactical voting. I have never voted tactically, but will do this time. My father is old school left labour, he left the party when Blair got in and rejoined for Corbyn. He is thrilled to bits to see the left back in labour, but is voting lib Dems because they are the only party with a chance of unseating the local Tory MP. I know a number of other Labour supporters doing the same. It does help that our LD candidate is very local and well respected as a county councillor. I certainly have no problems voting for her personally.

I do wonder how well the polls do at incorporating tactical voting into their predictions. It seems such a tricky thing to deal with.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/06/2017 11:06

Id love to hear some anti Corbyn PLP's views on how they feel Corbyn is doing, I doubt they could see this coming for their own shouts of his 'unelectability'

Also would have been interesting to see where we would have been in the polls if the chicken coup hadnt happened which knocked us down hard

LurkingHusband · 01/06/2017 11:06

Back to Brexit ...

Has anyone seen the Private Eye article on how the departure of the EMA from the UK is going ?

Westministenders – 10 days to go
RedToothBrush · 01/06/2017 11:07

The best the polls will come up with for tactical voting I suspect is in the 'don't knows'.

This is crucially one of the things that YouGov has been saying about when they drew up their model, and this is also what seems to differ with other pollsters.

I think.

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MsHooliesCardigan · 01/06/2017 11:16

woman I voted LD in 2010 and felt utterly betrayed but I have warmed to Clegg again. I think the behaviour of the Tories since they were unfettered by being in coalition shows how much of a moderating force the LDs were and I think that Clegg was more naive than anything else. He has said that he simply didn't reckon on the utter ruthlessness of the Tories.

RedToothBrush · 01/06/2017 11:18

Also would have been interesting to see where we would have been in the polls if the chicken coup hadnt happened which knocked us down hard

Honestly? Right now?

Not much different.

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Charmageddon · 01/06/2017 11:20

I think there has been an increase in a silent majority of anti-Corbyn voters over the course of the campaign.

At the start of the campaign people were more open with their reasons for not wanting Corbyn - but the grinding, relentless, shouty tactics of the corbynistas & momentum have silenced many. It's easier just to stay silent & avoid incurring their evangelical wrath.

I was fearful of Corbyn getting in over the first half of the campaign, now I think there's too much noise around him - it feels wrong (same as it felt with too much noise around an Ed Miliband win, a Remain win & a Clinton win).

SwedishEdith · 01/06/2017 11:29

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/exclusive-we-ll-give-scotland-northern-ireland-and-wales-their-say-on-brexit-says-keir-starmer-1-5043470

EXCLUSIVE: ‘We’ll give Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales their say on Brexit’ says Keir Starmer

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/06/2017 11:43

EXCLUSIVE: ‘We’ll give Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales their say on Brexit’ says Keir Starmer

Rainbow coalition on the cards I take it, cat amongst the pigeons well done Starmer

LurkingHusband · 01/06/2017 11:43

silent majority

Ah, the Nixon trick ... no matter how much support an issue has, it can be dismissed with a flick of the tongue with a fiction that there are somehow more people who oppose it, but (for some reason) can't make their voice heard.

It's a trick that can be applied anywhere, since it's completely unverifiable.

( see also : vocal minority )

Of course in the UK, the "silent majority" in 2015 were the people who didn't want a Conservative government.

howabout · 01/06/2017 11:46

Great bit of analysis of the Lib/Lab split Red. I have been thinking much the same thing over last couple of weeks. Just to add the SNP into the mix the current polling has them still on 50ish seats plus 2 or 3 between Lib / Lab. From the pov of the "Progressive Alliance" it doesn't make much difference how they carve up, but any softening in the Tory vote will hurt their 6-8 projection for Scotland and cut into any potential UK wide majority.

(SNP are about 4% of UK wide total vote share so add this to your 45-48% Lib/Lab and it becomes more evident why YouGov may be right)

Worth noting Angus R has a real fight on his hands against the Tories to hang onto Moray. That is why he attacked them and left JC to rise above the fray. He may have upset a few SNP MPs up against Labour in the Centre but I assume the strategy for the Scottish Leaders' Debate will redress this.

LurkingHusband · 01/06/2017 11:47

I wonder if the Keir Starmer statement might sway any English remainers to support Labour.

After all, if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can have a say, why not England ? Especially since the Tories have legitimised rerunning votes with fox hunting - (which was more decisively settled than Brexit).

howabout · 01/06/2017 11:50

Clever politics for once Sir Keir. Play to the Scottish Remain maj and kill off NSs' excuse note for Indyref2.

BiglyBadgers · 01/06/2017 11:51

At the start of the campaign people were more open with their reasons for not wanting Corbyn - but the grinding, relentless, shouty tactics of the corbynistas & momentum have silenced many. It's easier just to stay silent & avoid incurring their evangelical wrath

Seriously? For a long time I have often felt like the sole lonely Corbyn supporter (and I don't even think he is that amazing, I just like his policies) on social media getting derided as a crazed communist terrorist apologist. Some of the abuse leveled at those of us on the left of centre has been phenomenal. There have been many times I have just walked away from threads and conversations because I just couldn't face dealing with the pile on from everyone shouting about how awful Corbyn was and what extremists everyone who things otherwise is.

I just can't believe that there are teams of anti-corbyn people suddenly feeling like an afraid minority.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 01/06/2017 11:53

EXCLUSIVE: ‘We’ll give Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales their say on Brexit’ says Keir Starmer

I don't think it will have much sway.

It is nothing different to what the LibDems are proposing and according to that YouGov poll Farron and Clegg are in danger of losing their seats.

missmoon · 01/06/2017 11:53

"EXCLUSIVE: ‘We’ll give Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales their say on Brexit’ says Keir Starmer"

Wow, well played by Labour!

Charmageddon · 01/06/2017 11:54

LH, you misunderstand my post.

I was not attempting tricks or anything similar - just trying to articulate why the JC rise to deity feels wrong to me.

Other opinions from other people are available & just as valid as my own, obviously.
It was just me having an opinion with no attempt at factual or peer reviewed back-up, that's all - nothing more sinister than that.

Charmageddon · 01/06/2017 11:55

I just can't believe that there are teams of anti-corbyn people suddenly feeling like an afraid minority.

I didn't suggest they were afraid!

Just couldn't be bothered to engage anymore.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 01/06/2017 11:58

Just couldn't be bothered to engage anymore.

Especially on SM. Look how Emma Barnet got attacked for doing her job!

BiglyBadgers · 01/06/2017 11:58

Just couldn't be bothered to engage anymore.

After a whole week of some people suggesting Corbyn may not actually be the devil incarnate? I'm afraid I just don't see it.

LurkingHusband · 01/06/2017 12:03

LH, you misunderstand my post. - I was not attempting tricks or anything similar

I'm sure you weren't, but I still have a strong reaction when anyone conjures up this "silent majority". In a country like the where discourse and debate are open to all, it's a deeply insulting and patronising notion that for every person who is stating their view, there are somehow hundreds of shrinking violets who are somehow not being heard.

"Silent majority" tends to be trotted out whenever there isn't actually any majority and used to shut down debate.

In the same way you can prove anything with facts, you can find "silent majority" support for anything ...

LurkingHusband · 01/06/2017 12:22

Do I detect the Dread Hand of Gideon ?

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/miriam-gonz-lez-dur-ntez-brexit-is-back-to-front-it-will-be-a-take-not-give-negotiation-a3553511.html

(snip)

Those factors combined mean that almost any concessions from the EU should be of interest for the UK. In plain words: almost any agreement that the UK obtains is better than no agreement at all.

The fact the Prime Minister has not understood these basic concepts is very serious indeed. Every time the PM goes on robotically about “no deal is better than a bad deal” she reveals how very little she knows about trade.

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