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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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squoosh · 31/05/2017 21:21

I liked Farron's 'go make a brew when I'm finished and don't bother listening to Amber Rudd' comment.

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 21:22

If that is the case about Rudd's father it just makes May look even worse. If Rudd can turn up dispite a really bloody good reason why she would not feel like dealing with this sort of rubbish right now, it is hard to see how 'I'm far too busy thinking about Brexit' can be seen as an acceptable excuse.

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 21:26

I think Corbyn did what he needed to do in this debate. Nothing spectacular, but je managed not to fall over or say anything terrible and put the pressure on May just by being there. I would imagine labour will be breathing a sigh of relief and considering it an evening well spent.

Motheroffourdragons · 31/05/2017 21:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 21:29

Farron has really suffered for not getting airtime this election. Though no fault of his own nor the LDs imho.

I'm not terribly surprised that he has surprised. Its like the thing with Corbyn, in that a lot of the dislike has been down to lack of exposure rather than because they dislikeable.

I also think that its one of the reasons an early election was called - before Farron/Corbyn did get more of a profile and May's honeymoon came to an end.

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PigletWasPoohsFriend · 31/05/2017 21:30

That format dust doesn't work.

The number of people on SM that gave up after the first half hour was quite big.

The shouting and talking over each other became silly.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 31/05/2017 21:30

*just

BluePeppers · 31/05/2017 21:33

Mqaybe it's time to have some rules on how much air time everyone is getting during a campaign to avoid some parties never getting any airtime.
What would be fairer is for everyone to get the same exposure, and yes the green and the LD too.

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 21:36

Bit how do you manage social media or other online exposure peppers?

Charmageddon · 31/05/2017 21:37

I thought Amber Rudd came across pretty well actually!

Corbyn stuttered & stammered whenever thrown off his activist campaigner monologue stride.

Tim Farron made me proper lol.

Leanne & Angus did well for Wales & Scotland.

Caroline Lucas was excellent.

Paul Nuttall - meh.

howabout · 31/05/2017 21:38

Agree with Bigly on both counts and Mother.

JC kept it low key and avoided the pile in from all the minor contenders Red Ed fell prey to. He manages to preside supremely over the rabble referred to as the PLP and get his message and agenda across so this was always going to be a piece of cake for him.

The Coalition of Chaos = a uniquely British Passionate but Respectful Progressive Alliance representing the many from all over the UK Smile

Bearbehind · 31/05/2017 21:39

Amber Rudd was dreadful although she was on a hiding to nothing.

Wasn't she the only person the audience actually sniggered at?

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 21:41

This is an excerpt from the Guardians snap verdict on the debate. I think it sums it up nicely:

There may not have been a winner, but there was a loser: May herself. Long after we have all forgotten anything that was said last night, we will remember that May did not show up. Earlier I wrote that it seemed to make sense for a PM with a lead in the polls to avoid a debate like this. Now I am not so sure. David Cameron managed to wriggle out of one of the debates in 2015, but it went ahead without a Conservative and they called it a “challengers’ debate”, as if that was routine. No one particularly noticed that Cameron had stayed at home. But when Rudd tried to answer the question about leadership by praising the abilities of someone who was not even there (see 8.51pm) May’s absence was transparent - and not particularly explicable. Perhaps people will decide they don’t mind very much, but if May’s ratings continue to slide even further, this will inevitably be seen as a contributing factor.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 21:42

I think Rudd tried hard. But was trying to defend the indefensible and it went down hill accordingly. She was a refreshing change from May. But these things are relative!

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woman12345 · 31/05/2017 21:42

@faisalislam

Final question has got to be Brexit surely? Climate change important... but where's Brexit?

Agree, Lucas is great. Wood too; good tease to britain first man on paying for divorce. Noticed that Rudd mentioned the 'brightest and best' and that she barracked JC a lot at the start.

Where was brexit though? Husain seemed to shut down Farron when he started to talk about it, and I assumed there would be a question on it. Hmm

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 21:49

Here is labour's statement on the debate:

Tonight’s debate highlighted the clear choice at this election: between a Labour party that will invest in and transform our society to build a Britain for the many, and a Conservative party that has held people back and stand only for the few.

Only Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May will be prime minister after June 8, but tonight, in what was effectively a job interview for Number 10, only one of the two candidates bothered to turn up. Theresa May won’t even debate her opponents here in the UK, in an election she called. How on earth can she be trusted to negotiate in Europe and get the best deal for the British people?

Jeremy Corbyn clearly won the debate. He showed himself as a leader who wants to change the country for the better, to make it work for the many not just a few.

By contrast, Theresa May’s refusal to take part showed her weakness. It’s a sign of a Tory campaign which is treating the public with contempt, trying to hide from scrutiny. They showed tonight they have no answers to the challenges facing Britain and that they would make pensioners and working people worse off.

Tonight proved that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour are the only party that will build a Britain for the many not the few.

woman12345 · 31/05/2017 21:55

#WhereisTheresa: Prime Minister mocked on social media for missing BBC leaders' debate

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/whereistheresa-prime-minister-theresa-may-mocked-on-social-media-for-missing-bbc-leaders-debate-a3553941.html

Christmas has come early for George. Smile

squoosh · 31/05/2017 21:56

By contrast, Theresa May’s refusal to take part showed her weakness.

That's tonight's overwhelming message.

Peregrina · 31/05/2017 22:01

It's not fair to the country and also not kind to her: being PM is very stressful and aging - look how Blair and Cameron aged so quickly ... and they didn't have T1 or any other known health condition before office.

I agree with the first statement about being unfair to the country.
As for being 'not kind to her' - May couldn't wait to throw her hat into the ring when the Leadership election was announced. She could see as well as we how Blair and Cameron aged and should have questioned, especially given her health issues, whether she was capable of doing the job. She chose not to question. She has also chosen to sideline others in her Cabinet who could share some of the load with her. It's all I, I, I, me, me, me. Her problems are largely of her own making.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 22:02

Sam Coates Times‏ @SamCoatesTimes
Very striking Tories now reaching for "Labour will open immigration floodgates" stories with week to go. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Matthew Goodwin‏*@GoodwinMJ*

Otherwise known as "lock down on the social conservatives and ex-Kippers".

Big risk in this, imo. The age 25 - 55 group. Particularly in remain areas. This group have been leaning labour. It might "lock them out" of voting Con.

Thing is the debates are unlikely to affect older voters. Particularly Cons. It might help undecideds - particularly those who are not pensioners.

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howabout · 31/05/2017 22:03

Faisal sounding like he's got sour grapes cos MH has just upstaged him and Paxo.

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 22:07

It's all I, I, I, me, me, me. Her problems are largely of her own making

Yes, this is very much her problem. I have had a manager very similar. She also had a chronic illness, which caused her to be off work a lot simply because she refused to delegate anything or manage her workload effectively! I don't think May's diabetes should mean that she is unable to be prime minister, but it would suggest a worrying lack of self awareness if she managed the work in such a way that it meant her illness started to impact on her ability to get the job done.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 22:10

In elections both here and in the US, the younger better looking candidate generally wins. It makes a difference. Especially when it comes to television. (The effect is pronounced in the US and UK because of the domination of two parties)

Therefore, whilst it might not be fair to point out how May might look tired or strained, I don't think it can be ignored either.

Where May might differ is because of the demographic in this country currently being so weighed to being older. And its interesting that is too she has appeal with. She is 'someone like me' to many of those people.

Corbyn might be older, but he is spritely and its easy to forget his age. He seems full of energy and his mannerisms don't feel 'as old'.

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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 22:14

Kennedy went to great lengths to hide his chronic illnesses from the media and the tv cameras. Also Roosevelt though this was much easier at the time because television was not widespread during the 1940s. Also see Trump, who clearly has health issues that were massively down played - Hillary Clinton on the other hand got shafted because much was made of her health.

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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 22:17

Sam Coates Times‏*@SamCoatesTimes*

Tonight: Times/YouGov regular weekly poll shows 3pt Tory lead. (Poll different to YouGov model but Tory lead same)

CON 42 (-1)
LAB 39 (+3)
LD 7 (-2)
UKIP 4 (NC)
Other 8 (+1)

[Repeat this is the weekly YouGov poll and is different to the YouGov Model]

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