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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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LurkingHusband · 31/05/2017 14:17

In the unlikely event of a hung parliament, it would imo be best to have a minority govt

Not really ... quite apart from the very real sense of lurching from crisis to crisis (or is that "business as usual") you end up with goodness knows what deals being cooked up behind closed doors.

Again - with the benefit of hindsight - the LibDems were bang on the money in 2010 to insist on a formalised coalition where the actual T&Cs were in the public domain, so the country - and the world (let's not forget) could see what had been agreed.

The danger of a minority government relying on support for every vote is that there's no obligation to keep to agreements.

Here's another spoke for Theresa Wheel (as we should start calling it). I will wager that if it isn't explicit in the manifesto (for what it would be worth anyway, at this stage) it is definitely on the "first session of parliament" agenda, there will be an expectation to repeal the FTPA.

That probably won't happen in a hung parliament. Which then sets the clock ticking for the next general election .... 2022. Which may be a worse time to be a Tory than 2017.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 31/05/2017 14:18

Some notes on polls. (Probably preaching to converted, please forgive).

The formula for the margin of error due to natural variation between samples of a given size is 100 / √( sample size ) percentage points. This is a rule of thumb (and not exactly correct, but good enough for the job). Any difference less than this is insignificant. There is no way to correct for this type of sampling error - it's intrinsic to the fact that you may be 'unlucky' in your panel selection.

The sampling error increases when you reweight the results, as the polling companies are doing, because you are increasing the contribution that a smaller group of people are making on the final result. Basically the overall error is the largest of the errors in the individual subgroups. So the more reweighting jiggery-pokery is going on, the larger the overall error in the prediction.

Polling companies could throw more money at increasing their samples. However, I suspect they stop where they do (typically around 1000 respondents) because at some point systematic errors will take over. These will arise from the panel design, wording of the questions, adjustments for turnout, unreliable respondents and so on.

I would be very wary of any kind of seat prediction, as FPTP introduces all sorts of nonlinear effects.

What is interesting is that the unadjusted polls seem fairly static, where there are changes it seems to be consolidation on the two main parties. Turnout is going to be the decider in this election, I think.

LurkingHusband · 31/05/2017 14:19

Maybe they are worried that con supports won't bother to vote.

I have read that traditionally, Tory "supporters" tend to be more active electorally than Labour, who just don't vote. Torys have been known to vote Liberal or Labour, apparently ?

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 14:25

No Theresa May, is better than a bad Theresa May.

Tonight's BBC debate.

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BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:26

Scotland Poll details

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1390009-stv-election-poll-snp-to-hold-50-seats-amid-tory-gains/

43% SNP 50 (-6) seats
25% CON 7 (+6)
25% LAB 1(nc)
5% LDEM 1(nc)

Sample 1026, Fieldwork 22-26 May

Interesting leader approval ratings:

NS (SNP) -4 (-18)

RD (Tory) +5 (-26)
May -27 (-43)

KD (LAB) -2 (+8)
JC -13 (+13)

Both May and RD have plummeted massively.
Is that the cause or the consequence of Tory popularity waning ?

Ditto JC and KD improving with Labour, but by much less than the Tory fall.
How much more of a swing is likely in 10 days ?

Voters still think May would be a more capable PM than JC, 42 vs 40%

NS down too, but not as much as the Tories.
Voters dissatisfied with NS performance as First Minister, 50 vs 45% - that's ok in a 3-4 party system.
More like reality setting in now they are a party of govt (Scotland) rather than some magic protest vote

howabout · 31/05/2017 14:34

I agree with your comments on Tory voters protesting by voting against and Labour voters protesting by not voting LH.

That said all the fed up Labour voters in Scotland protested by voting SNP last time so perhaps we are different in that respect too. NB Labour voters are marginally enthused up here atm and SNP voters much less so which compared to 2015 is a massive change.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:34

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/31/snp-tories-scotland-conservatives-scottish-politics

"Tories in Scotland have become a party of protest. Tory protesters stood outside the SNP manifesto launch on Tuesday in Perth with anti-independence placards. The SNP has become a party of government. The two have literally swapped roles."

Also, peak Ruth ?
"NS popularity ratings show her with 48% satisfaction and 50% dissatisfaction now.
Davidson’s are 45% satisfaction, 48% dissatisfaction."

How did Ruth become Marmite ? Supporting the rape clause ?

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 14:38

I have read that traditionally, Tory "supporters" tend to be more active electorally than Labour, who just don't vote. Torys have been known to vote Liberal or Labour, apparently ?

What about the former Labour voters who went Kipper and now are considering Cons? What's their voting record like?

And what about those traditional Tory lifelong supporters who will almost certainly vote but vote Labour or LD this time around?

This is where the stuff about people behaving as they have in previous elections DOES fall down. This election is breaking patterns.

We are already being told that young people are going to vote in much larger numbers than in the past. We don't know if this is yet to pass or not, but it is important to note.

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Charmageddon · 31/05/2017 14:42

No Theresa May, is better than a bad Theresa May.

😂

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:43

iirc, Rudd a good debater. JC will have far more problems combatting her than he would May
She is less likeable than him, but far more human than May (like most of the world !)
I wonder if all the other parties will split their fire equally, or target Rudd or JC

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 14:45

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/31/controversial-blogposts-tory-party-candidate-absolutely-shocking?CMP=twt_gu
Tory candidate's blogposts on rape 'absolutely shocking'
Darlington candidate, Peter Cuthbertson, wrote about rape, homosexuality and morality in prominent blog in early 2000s

A Conservative candidate in a key marginal seat has said a woman’s “promiscuity” is relevant in determining how likely it is that she consented to sex in alleged rape cases.

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BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:45

charmageddon an anonymous source from Tory central office reportedly said that first.
(I hope he/she is well hidden

BluePeppers · 31/05/2017 14:45

www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-brexit-conservatives-far-right-in-charge-a7764986.html

Its the far right of the Tory party, not TM, that is charge right now

I know we have been saying that for ages but it's nice to see that these ideas are finally becoming 'mainstream'.
I'm wondering if people will hear so close from the vote?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 31/05/2017 14:47

Robertson needs to get the better of Rudd and Corbyn.

Farron will find it hard I think.

It certainly won't be a walk in the park for Corbyn.

howabout · 31/05/2017 14:48

How did Ruth become Marmite ? Supporting the rape clause ?

That and Kezia looking far more credible than previously and dropping the HH position. Interesting that it is almost 50 / 50 for RD and NS.

LurkingHusband · 31/05/2017 14:48

RTB:

Of course 99% of perceived "wisdom" about elections is from pre-UKIP days. So gawd only knows how they skew the form. Although it's worth noting UKIPs proud insistence - quite correctly - that their surge came from getting non voters to vote. A strategy which definitely had an effect. The only problem being - as polls reflect - there's a reason they didn't vote previously. They are just not the voting type.

For all the level of debate on this thread, forum, and site, there really are some people out there who think Brexit has happened, and don't understand why it's always in the news. (Hanging around hospital waiting rooms, as my health dictates is where I have heard it). I have no idea how YouGov, MyGove, or PissedOfMay pollsters factor them into their forecasts.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:49

Cuthbertson, Philip Davies .... how many rape apologists are lurking in the Tory parliamentary party Angry
Strange that a PM who claims to be a feminist tolerates them.

We would and do hammer parties for tolerating racism or antisemitism, but there is so little attention paid to those MPs tolerating & excusing rapists

squoosh · 31/05/2017 14:51

Kezia went up in my estimation when she admirably maintained a total poker face when introduced on Sky News as the Leader of Scottish Labia.

BiglyBadgers · 31/05/2017 14:51

I am sceptical of any poll that is basing assumptions on previous voting patterns because this election isn't like previous elections. The context for it is unique and therefore unpredictable. I know lifelong conservatives who are voting labour or lib dem because of social care and austerity. I know labour voters voting conservative because of brexit. I have also read that poling amoungst young voters is rather difficult. Many young people don't have the standard communication channels such as landline numbers or fixed addresses so are harder to access to poll.

I read one article (I have no idea where it is now or I would link) that said that polling companies tended to rely disproportionately on university students when polling the young so were not always representative. I think a higher turnout in the youth vote could add a big element of unpredictability.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:53

LH That level of ignorance is astonishing and depressing
How do those people get through life being so unaware of vitally important events and information that definitely will affect their lives

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 14:54

squoosh GrinGrinGrin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/05/2017 14:56

.

Zxyzoey31 · 31/05/2017 14:56

I agree with Lurking, I have heard Brexit has happened and now we unite to make it a success!

Also all those who say those forecasts about economic doom if Brexit happened were proved wrong as the economic doom hasn't happened. Yeah, because Brexit hasn't happened yet so the consequences have not been felt.

Zxyzoey31 · 31/05/2017 14:58

I am skeptical about polls saying lots of young voters will vote. I have wished for decades that they would but election after election the actual amount of voters from that demographic is just so low. No wonder they keep getting stuffed by the political parties.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 14:58

This seems to show quite well why the pollsters are predicting such wide differences in the number of seats that each party will win.

The difference between 7% and 12% lead for the Conservatives is 48 seats. Less than 7% lead looks like its into The Hung Parliament Area.

I have no idea how accurate it is, but it does explain why there is such a huge difference of opinion going on.

Westministenders – 10 days to go
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