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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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whatwouldrondo · 31/05/2017 10:24

Maybe this is a personal perspective but looking back to the 2010 election there was a real sense people were voting for a hung parliament, and muted enthusiasm for either extreme. It was not exactly a surprise when that was what was delivered. God only knows what possessed people in 2015 The extent of intended tactical voting is much more explicit this time, and those who voted Remain, or Leave, and hope that we will stay in the single market (it is all very well talking about releavers but there are Leave voters who want to stay in the single market) have greater motivation.......

Certainly locally on doorsteps there is an increasing realisation / concern about the right wing of the Conservatives. The Tory candidate who is a moderate is losing the personal vote as a result. Getting a lot of "nice person, good MP, but we don't want her friends, especially May"

HashiAsLarry · 31/05/2017 10:26

I think if it has any effect at all it will do so on both sides, so balance out. There is still 8 days to go, a long time in politics right now. I imagine this poll will be forgotten by a the end of the day.
This is what I'm seeing too. Both Tory and labour waverers who are now abut bouyed. One lot by the lab threat and the other by being able to prevent a landslide.
I would love a hung parliament or minority government right now. Brings in what we've been missing: checks and balances.

howabout · 31/05/2017 10:34

Worth bearing in mind that GO set in train all the current welfare cuts and he and the FT are the prime movers in trying to engineer a defeat for Mrs May and team.

The currency markets do not seem to agree with JP Morgan this morning. Always worth questioning how banks make money ie by profiting against the trend, so if they can move the trend by briefing and profit on the fundamentals they will.

Off to look at YouGov and any Scottish analysis, but a very strange turnaround when we have gone from the PLP decrying JC as unelectable to the pollsters saying the opposite in under a month. If he doesn't deliver Brexit I might be a bit cross but he would probably rebalance the economy so much back towards rEU that it may not matter. He would also rebalance rUK back towards Scotland which kills off or renders irrelevant Indyref2. No so sure GO et al would be quite so philosophical.

howabout · 31/05/2017 10:37

In a chipper mood this morning cos DD1 has been perfecting tablet making. She's taken it away to the school bake sale but I am clearing up behind her while scraping the pot - only JC approved levels of sugar consumption going on Grin

LurkingHusband · 31/05/2017 10:38

It's interesting to speculate how a no overall majority parliament may pan out ... especially as the LibDems will probably be impossible to form a coalition with. I could only see that happening if electoral reform were (this time) guaranteed.

Are there any electoral historians on this thread who can comment on my vague recollection over the years that the electorate tends to dislike snap elections, and don't always vote "correctly" ??? Underscoring the point that May (and Brown) should have called an election as soon as they became PM ...

woman12345 · 31/05/2017 10:39

"nice person, good MP, but we don't want her friends, especially May"
Alienating all the moderate tory and leave voters, is not a good look for May.

Six out of 10 people (59 per cent) who voted Conservative in 2015 want to know more about Ms May’s intentions on Brexit. So do 76 per cent of Labour voters and 75 per cent of Liberal Democrat supporters at the last election
from the bigchoc Independent article.

squoosh · 31/05/2017 10:41

howabout if you don't post any more messages I'm going to assume you've slipped into a tablet induced coma. That stuff is lethal!

woman12345 · 31/05/2017 10:46

1946 is the main comparison I know of LH. European success against fascism, increasing British gov surveillance of its populace, assumed tory landslide, increased political education/awareness through adversity. And a surprising result.

Tanith · 31/05/2017 10:50

Interesting comment from the other Jeremy (Hunt).

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/health/jeremy-hunt-brexit-nhs/

Of course, he is a Remainer in a Remain constituency.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 11:17

I remember Tory PM Ted Heath calling the 1974 GE during the miners' strike, 3-day week etc, with the slogan:
"who governs Britain"

The voters answered:
" Not you, chum !"

and elected Labour / Harold Wilson.
Very high turnout

LurkingHusband · 31/05/2017 11:22

I know the post WW2 election was a shock ("The King thought the people 'ungrateful'" as I read in a book years ago), but that wasn't a snap election.

I can vaguely recall 1974 (obviously elections meant no school Grin).

So it backfired for Heath ... will it do for May ?

It seems a long time ago now, but it's worth recalling the suggestion that this election was called without any consultation with the cabinet ...

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 11:22

btw, in that 1974 GE, in NI the Unionists won 11 of the 12 seats on 51% of the vote.
They used this as a pretext , together with a unionist General Strike, to dump the Sunningdale agreement. This ended power-sharing until the GFA.

How the balance of power has changed there .... for the better Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2017 11:25

There was total fury in Tory circles, politicians and media - for years afterwards, over Heath being defeated.
That's why MrsT, Keith Joseph et al planned from the moment she took over to ruthlessly smash the miners in revenge

woman12345 · 31/05/2017 11:37

I went on a great 'economic literacy' course at Manchester Uni and Institute of Education, paid for by Keith Joseph and 'accidentally' taught by liberals. Top man. He'd wanted teachers to teach the 'economic facts of life' to college students. So I did. Grin

The strange disappearance of Cabinet Collective responsibility has been in many ways the cause of this pickle, LH.

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 11:39

www.itv.com/news/2017-05-31/is-mays-fate-to-be-hillary/
Is May's fate to be Hillary?

I think the comparison is not necessarily right. The vote in the US was hugely driven by racism and sexism and I don't think those elements are present in the same way. The dynamics are different in that respect.

But it is interesting he focuses on the negative campaign and the need for hope.

Also this election has gradually become more anti-May (as opposed to anti-conservative I note) which owes a lot to how May has tried to brand the election and herself as almost 'the hero'.

This is extremely difficult when you have some one who isn't charismatic. Indeed every thing she has done has worked against her.

Her campaign team do seem to be out of touch with voters who are not of the same mindset. The attacks thrown at Corbyn are just not sticking in the way they want. It only serves to highlight the difference in thinking and priorities people have in this country. The NHS (and social care) are still the Achilles heel to the Conservatives in a way which is not totally showing itself overtly but is definitely there.

stv.tv/news/politics/1390009-stv-election-poll-snp-to-hold-50-seats-amid-tory-gains/
STV election poll: SNP to hold 50 seats amid Tory gains

New Scottish poll.

I note it matches Yougov.

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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 11:58

Why would the LDs a) be part of a coalition again? b) vote with the Cons even on a case by case?

Have you read the manifestos? There is not much overlap and May sees them almost as the biggest opposition force she's had precisely for this reason.

Equally though I'm not sure they would enter into a Labour coalition. A case by case vote is far more likely here.

I personally favour a hung parliament as it should mean the centre re-emerges. But in either a Lab or Con led scenario see an early collapse in government. (Oh the irony of having pledged to repeal the fixed term act only for the Cons to end up in a situation where they might rely on it to stay in power).

Also worth pointing out that it's always CON + DUP as the minimum bench mark for the Conservatives as they are so close. In reality a hung parliament only is reality if the two don't get enough together although in name it might be a hung parliament.

If Labour do win then this does become a risk in another way. The is no such thing as a 'good Brexit'. The harsh reality of it might backfire and drive people even further to the right and let the Cons off the hook for blame and an early collapse of parliament under a Labour coalition with very little room for movement (remembering the Kate Hoeys of this world) is definitely not beyond the realms of possibly.

May didn't want another general because she said the country needed stability. She wasn't wrong on that. But her leadership is an intrinsic part of that instability as she has totally ignored the need to reach out to people who disagree and instead has been more confrontational.

This country perhaps needs a coalition of sorts. Will a labour one have enough seats to do that? If moderate cons decided to vote against the whip on Brexit we might get a situation in the best interests of the country but I rather see that happening after it gets rather chilly in places dark, deep and hot.

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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 12:00

We are in danger of turning into Italy. Who are currently considering the German electoral system...

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SapphireStrange · 31/05/2017 12:09

Excuse my ignorance, but is a hung parliament different from a minority government, and is that different again from a coalition?

prettybird · 31/05/2017 12:19

A hung parliament is the result: no party with an overall majority.

A minority government (which may or may not be the largest single party) or forming a coalition are two of the ways forward from that result.

A third way is for no new government to be formed and then the queen has a dilemma! ConfusedShock

RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 12:20

A hung parliament is when no party gets over half the 650 seats so can not make a majority vote alone. (The reality is that in the British parliament because Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster it is effectively slightly less than half of 650 and actually 650 less Sinn Fein halved).

A minority government is when a single party decides to form a government without a majority. This obviously has problems because they will always need support from another party or rebels from another party to pass legislation on a case by case basis.

A coalition government is when two parties (or more) make a formal agreement to always vote together to try and ensure they have a majority vote. In theory you could have a minority coalition government.

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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 12:21

This is most unfortunate....

Westministenders – 10 days to go
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RedToothBrush · 31/05/2017 12:22

Rumour is that Corbyn WILL attend the BBC's leaders debate tonight...

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SapphireStrange · 31/05/2017 12:22

Thanks both!

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 31/05/2017 12:24

Rumour is that Corbyn WILL attend the BBC's leaders debate tonight...

There is also a rumour it is Thornbury.

Sturgeon is also not attending and is sending Robertson.

Bearbehind · 31/05/2017 12:26

Corbyn has confirmed he'll be there according to Sky.