LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

[optionalrationale]

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

I would love a good outcome economically, socially, environmentally. If that is possible outside the EU that's fine.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/05/09/brexit-is-starting-to-bite-that-s-why-they-want-you-to-shut

Highly recommended.

I get a lot of remainers will never support Brexit however I do think the more of them get behind it the more likely it will be to succeed and the greater that success will be.
Another gem. So we don't have to support it, we just have to 'get behind it'.

"That might be true, does that mean you want Brexit to fail so that everyone is persuaded to rejoin the EU"

And no, obviously there was nothing in my post to suggest this. I was simply pointing out that there will be more remainers than leavers in a few years time even if nobody changes their mind at all on the issue. Which is presumably why hardcore leavers are keen to see it done as quickly as possibly, whatever the cost.

I don't know, if things go really tits up, the demographics may not change the way you expect: Increased emmigration (one way to get the net migration stats down!) of disproportionately younger people, and (worst case scenario) decreasing child health may mean that it becomes more and more common for those older people to outlive their children.

hardcore leavers are keen to see it done as quickly as possibly, whatever the cost Its a 2 year negotiation, I don't hear many people saying we should leave before then.

That's a good but depressing point, squishy

That's a good but depressing point, squishy

That might be true, does that mean you want Brexit to fail so that everyone is persuaded to rejoin the EU

I don't think the EU will want us back. I think the EU may benefit from a UK exit when they hoover up much of our industry and financial services to relocate to the EU. I can't see that we will get anything other than a bad deal. Leavers seem to expect the EU to give us a deal that would be damaging to the EU.

pbs.twimg.com/media/C_TLSbjW0AAd0de.jpg

Yes, displaced financial services and inward investment are probably worth more than our contribution.

"I get a lot of remainers will never support Brexit however I do think the more of them get behind it the more likely it will be to succeed and the greater that success will be."

It's a quaint notion, rather as though Brexit were a village fete that relied on jolly community participation to succeed, rather than an immensely complicated untangling of agreements that have been woven into the fabric of every part of UK public life for 4 decades.

Nobody has been able to explain how "getting behind Brexit" could make one iota of difference to the outcome. We could train as trade negotiators I suppose. If anyone has any better ideas I would love to hear them.

In terms of the future demographic, it's quite complicated I think. The historic antipathy towards Germany felt by so many 50 something-plus brexiters should die away (quite literally!), and whole generations of young people will come of age during a period when they can manifestly see rights and opportunities being removed, but on the other hand, the control of information persuading people how to think, so manifest in this referendum (who read cadwaladr's piece in the observer on Sunday? Not the OP I suspect), will get subtler and more embedded, so who knows. Ultimately it must depend on where true political power lies at the eventual end of this process - not superficial 'vote in an election every 5 years power' - big deal - but true political power. I keep coming back to Harari's new book - Homo Deus - he is very good on this.

IMV the only thing you can say for certain is that at least for the time being, we are all f**ked.

Nobody has been able to explain how "getting behind Brexit" could make one iota of difference to the outcome.

Yes, this is the puzzling omission. Even if I was the most fervid Brexiteer this side of Nigel Farage, I can't think of anything I could do that would make any difference to the outcome.

A commentator on the Express said that we all need to boycott French products for 6 months. Good luck organising that one.

A commentator on the Express said that we all need to boycott French products for 6 months.
Fuck that. I think we should all eat extra Camembert just to make a point.

A commentator on the Express said that we all need to boycott French products for 6 months.

I'm off to Tesco to buy croissants and brioche rolls!

Hmm French stick, brie, croissants, brioche, onions, stripy t-shirts.

I'm getting the works if the Express say we should boycott it.

Today 07:40 Kaija
"The EU has not removed sovereignty"

Why didn't anyone explain this before? You should have been running the Remain campaign instead of all those Project PoopYourPantsInTerror types

You've won me over. Let's go with your second referendum and romp home with a victory for "No thanks to Brexit". Hurrah!

Yes, this is why I thought the boycott idea wasn't really going to fly.

Express said that we all need to boycott French products for 6 months.

Why do they hate Democracy and the Will of the People?!

Well OP if you don't want to believe Kaija perhaps you'll believe the Brexit White Paper produced by David Davies and Co

Whilst parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.”

It's not about sovereignty, its about democracy. Getting decisions made as close as possible to the people affected by them. The people being empowered to be able to get rid of those making the laws through the ballot box.

It's interesting isn't that for years there were a few hardcore eurosceptics. Now it seems to me there are quite a lot of brexitsceptics (in the pursuit of transparency I should declare I'm one of them) and the political landscape will probably reflect that for the next 40 years. You never know in 40 years time the Torys may hold a referendum on whether to join the EU to quell infighting in their party....

The people being empowered to be able to get rid of those making the laws through the ballot box.

None of the problems we have with the NHS, Education, Social Care and Housing have anything to do with the EU. If we couldn't solve these problems before why would we be able to solve them now? Theresa May has no plans to build social housing and her plan for education is to return us to a failed model of secondary modern schools. Maybe if our governments over the years had shown any capacity to solve the problems which were wholly their responsibility I might have more faith in what the country will achieve with its new found "sovereignty"

You have far more power and opportunity to get rid of Theresa May (including standing against her in Maidenhead) than I do if getting rid of Junkers