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Brexit
Original poster

LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

466 replies

optionalrationale · 06/05/2017 15:02

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

OP posts:
Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:16

I thought accio's point was perfectly clear: that of all the factors driving the EU's negotiating position, the prospect of a UK referendum will be a very long way down the list.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:20

Yes indeed, HPFA. And what does "getting behind it" even mean? Are we supposed to be signing up for voluntary fruit picking?

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:21

This call for Remainers to "get behind" Brexit is slightly odd

I get a lot of remainers will never support Brexit however I do think the more of them get behind it the more likely it will be to succeed and the greater that success will be.

Radishal · 09/05/2017 14:25

I will never get behind Brexit because I think it is a stupid self defeating idea. I'll "get behind " my country and how best we can weather this shit storm that is about to descend on us.

And yes, whenever I come across someone entitled or racist (usually both) I say TO MYSELF " I bet you voted Leave ". Childish, I know but it makes me feel better for a moment.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:26

And what does "getting behind it" even mean?

It means voting for May ;)

Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:32

"I get a lot of remainers will never support Brexit however I do think the more of them get behind it the more likely it will be to succeed and the greater that success will be."

How?

HPFA · 09/05/2017 14:33

*I get a lot of remainers will never support Brexit however I do think the more of them get behind it the more likely it will be to succeed and the greater that success will be.8

This is the bit I completely don't get. Of course I'll carry on paying my taxes (if I'm still in a job) and being a law-abiding citizen but other than that there is nothing I can do to support Brexit or indeed to oppose it. I'm sticking to my original view - this is all aimed at getting us to accept policies in the name of Brexit which we would not otherwise want.

And as for voting for May - it makes no difference to the negotiations whether she has a large majority or not and I certainly am not going to give her a mandate to return us to secondary modern, underfunded schools or any other of her backward looking policies.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:45

all the factors driving the EU's negotiating position, the prospect of a UK referendum will be a very long way down the list

What other factors are on this list?

  1. Deterring others from leaving.
  2. Getting a good deal for the EU27 citizens.
  3. A united Ireland maybe?

Then either :

4a) Stopping the UK from leaving and helping remainers win a second vote by giving the UK a bad deal. or

4b) Getting the UK out of the EU by any means possible, making the second referendum irrelevant.

So not a long list, I am sure the EU can multi-task a bad deal if it helps them win an election.

squishysquirmy · 09/05/2017 14:45

And what does "getting behind it" even mean?
I sort of have a suspicion that it means shutting up, closing your eyes, waving a flag and leaving those jolly clever sorts in government to get on with whatever they want: Its not for us little people to have an opinion! Dissent is tantamount to treason, naturally.

Zxyzoey31 · 09/05/2017 14:48

The answer to your question OP is quite simple. No-one who voted leave in the referendum knew what "leave" meant. There were no terms agree or even proposed, no deal existed that could be agree with or not.

The way you put it in your question is that such a second referendum would be a vote on whether or not to agree to the terms of the exit deal which are all there in black and white and clear.

Otherwise known as making an informed choice.

I think that people making an informed choice is a hard thing to disagree with. If, of course, you prefer the idea that people make a choice based on what they think or hope might be the facts rather than the reality, you may think otherwise.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:49

Must mean the fruit picking.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:50

Or alternatively, lie back and think of Brexit.

tropicalwaterdiver · 09/05/2017 14:53

Second referendum will give a chance to vote those who didn't vote in first referendum - or who used it as a "protest vote". With newly registered voters the outcome could change.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:57

How?

I can't read the article, its behind a pay wall.

tygr · 09/05/2017 15:00

Once we leave we'd lose all the advantages we've agreed over the years (outside the Euro and Schengen, veto etc). If we try to rejoin, we'd have to rejoin on the same bog standard terms as any new entrant. We'll never be in the position we are now again.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 15:02

With newly registered voters the outcome could change
And in another year it could change again, and in another year and so on. You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want and maintain the democratic mandate of the referendum.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 15:04

If we try to rejoin, we'd have to rejoin on the same bog standard terms as any new entrant. We'll never be in the position we are now again

Yip we would be bog standard members just like all the others. Sounds fair to me. Why would anyone every vote for that?

Kaija · 09/05/2017 15:07

"Yip we would be bog standard members just like all the others. Sounds fair to me. Why would anyone every vote for that?"

Why would anyone vote to lose all the advantages we had? And yet it happened. Anything is possible.

tygr · 09/05/2017 15:26

"With newly registered voters the outcome could change
And in another year it could change again, and in another year and so on. You can't keep having referendums until you get the result you want and maintain the democratic mandate of the referendum."

I think the demographics of leavers and remainers is highly significant. Younger people were more in favour of remaining and so as time goes on, naturally the balance will shift as the older generation very sadly dies off. It doesn't seem fair that people who won't be around to feel the consequences get the same say as those who are just embarking on their adult lives but there we go, that's democracy.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 15:29

Why would anyone vote to lose all the advantages we had?

Well we would just go around in circles on that one. Why would any prisoner ever leave a guided cage? In the hopes of something better with the risk of it being worse, or just to be free?

But I think its a good debate to have in post Brexit UK. Do we want to be full and equal members of the EU in the future or stay in the renewed UK. I think, only in that environment, will we ever truly be able to tell if the UK can become a genuinely pro EU state.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 15:36

Younger people were more in favour of remaining and so as time goes on, naturally the balance will shift as the older generation very sadly dies off.

Or you could say:

Younger people were more in favour of remaining but as time goes on they too get older, naturally the balance is tipped more the same way as the older generation happily live longer.

Its like the mix of young Labour idealists verses old Conservatives. You would think as time goes on you would get more and more Labour landslides. But the young get older their politics shift. The old live longer and we get a Tory landslide.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 15:44

The EU is a cage? A few posts ago you said you would be happy to stay in if we could be in Schengen and the Eurozone. Would this be less of a cage for you?

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 16:25

The EU is a cage?

The EU is a cage if you dont want to be there. If you want to be there its a home. I wanted the UK to decide which one it was. It has very little effect on me other than I want to live in a united country. Obviously its currently divided but that was always going to be the case which either side won. I think that's a short term thing, we just need to give it some time.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 16:28

Give it time? That's probably right when you look at the demographics - remainers will be very much in the majority a few years down the line.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 16:43

remainers will be very much in the majority a few years down the line

That might be true, does that mean you want Brexit to fail so that everyone is persuaded to rejoin the EU. Or do you want Brexit to succeed so that people are persuaded to stay out of the EU? Do you think the Lib Dems should become a reverse UKIP party?