LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

[optionalrationale]

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

OP you have a glitch in your Matrix

Can you say what you wish for?

Come on optional, you can do better than that

I'm genuinely interested. TheElementsSong does not say much (unless it's about unicorns). His / her last point was about "wishes". He/she didn't share what he/she wishes for.

I believe elements was referring to your (Leavers') wishes - your optimistic hopes and dreams of sunlit uplands, and your quaint idea that if we all close our eyes and "get behind" Brexit everything will be just fine.

Hope this helps.

Yeah I got that. I am asking her /him what her/his wishes are.

Not a difficult question.
HTH

It'll be dead unicorns I'm sure.

But lol at "genuinely interested". Good one.

Can I just re-post squishy squashy for all those people who only read the beginning and end of threads?

"Everytime someone says they don't believe in Brexit, a baby unicorn dies. sad

Please, please, won't somebody think of the baby unicorns?"

Brilliant.

But why so studiously avoid such a simple question?

What do you wish for?

I wish for an EU passport for me and the rest of my family so that we can continue to enjoy freedom of movement which some people voted to take off us.
Fortunately we are entitled to one. It'll just take a bit of time and money to get it sorted.

Well that's good that your wishes appear to be ones that can be fulfilled relatively easily. Which country will you apply to?

Well that's good that your wishes appear to be ones that can be fulfilled relatively easily. Which country will you apply to?

Er that's kind of the point... you can't just apply for one.

You can just go and live in any country in the EU, we are still in the EU. Whats the big fuss there is still plenty of time to move.

And if you don't get citizenship, you potentially ... will just have to return once Brexit is complete

If that where to happen you could just take the EU to court to protect your EU rights and right to a family life.

If that where to happen you could just take the EU to court to protect your EU rights and right to a family life.

No you can't because if we crash out without a deal, you cease to be an EU citizen because you hold a British passport. You become a citizen from a third party (as in not a national and also not an EU national).

This is precisely one of the reasons a no deal is NOT better than a bad deal for many Brits currently living abroad who do not qualify yet for or meet the requirements for local citizenship.

If they were to loose their current job for example, they end up in a situation where they could own a property but not have a legal right to live there and be forced to move back to the UK.

I find it staggering that we are STILL having this conversation as if its all dead easy. Its not.

Equally if you are a British citizen who works for a company in the EU and your job requires you to travel and work within the EU you could face problems and restrictions that your colleagues don't.

Or there is no guarantee that post Brexit British qualifications will be considered equal and relevant. So you might not be able to get another job without retraining to get their relevant qualification even if you've been doing the job for years.

DH and I are actively looking at the possibly of moving to the EU. It is anything but simple and DH's job makes it considerably easier than it would for others.

Mother, don't apologise EVER for pointing out the reality of the situation people are facing.

Its easy to be dismissive when you don't understand. That's why people don't want to understand.

And so here is what I think. People who voted for brexit gave not a jot of a thought to anybody who might have made their life elsewhere in the EU under FOM. Not one second's thought, it didn't matter to them in the slightest, it didn't affect them so it wasn't worth worrying about.

It just shows how as a nation we really do not care at all about the person next to us. It is all me me me. We will see the same at the gen election, when they all head down to vote in Mrs T May, and vote to get the worse deal ever in the face of further austerity, cuts to essential services and the NHS.

I'm always surprised that others are surprised that the way people vote is largely based on their own self-interest and worldview. For instance, socialists don't give a damn about me, and nor should they. Given a chance, they'd happily "redistribute" every penny I have and laugh while they did it. So at the ballot box my attitude to the opposing side is ... fuck 'em!

My own self interest is important but I am still part of society.

Society is other people.

Failing to understand that other people are of value to your own life experience and opportunities can be harmful to your own interests.

The most crude example is if I screw over all doctors and nurses then if I get ill then I die.

You can not escape that regardless of your beliefs. All you do is show how much value you place on other people in your society and what they have to contribute to that society.

(It also works with socialism though and you can undervalue people's contribution if you decide to tax too heavily to the detriment of society as a whole).

If you do not feature others in your decision making process then the "fuck em" attitude could come back to haunt you. How you treat others determines the protection you, yourself have.

If everyone goes "fuck em" you end up with a dysfunctional society - and all too often fascism.

If you are comfortable with that, I'll not persuade you different but you are not justifying your position. You merely are part of the race to the bottom.

But yeah that's surprising because we are humans...

Red, please - even after all the cuts, all the supposed austerity, no Conservative Government has ever cut the size of the state below 30%, and nor will this one. For that matter, I'd be surprised if any Labour Government ever got much above 50-60%.

The most crude example is if I screw over all doctors and nurses then if I get ill then I die.

And that's why I do believe in having an NHS, out of both enlightened self interest and a dose of concern for my fellow citizens not keeling over in the street. But as part of a state that makes up a third of the economy, rather than half or more.

Meh.

The trouble is size of the working population is going down whilst the pensionable one is growing. Together with its health problems.

You are comparing the past with a present that isn't comparable.

Guess the EU is a pretty shit place then if its going to chuck people out after Brexit. Doesn't sound like a club I would want to be in.